Posted by: edhensley | August 30, 2009

God Orders Saul to Kill Babies


1 Samuel 15 (New International Version)

The LORD Rejects Saul as King

1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy  everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”

4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.

7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 “I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

12 Early in the morning Samuel got up and went to meet Saul, but he was told, “Saul has gone to Carmel. There he has set up a monument in his own honor and has turned and gone on down to Gilgal.”

13 When Samuel reached him, Saul said, “The LORD bless you! I have carried out the LORD’s instructions.”

14 But Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?”

15 Saul answered, “The soldiers brought them from the Amalekites; they spared the best of the sheep and cattle to sacrifice to the LORD your God, but we totally destroyed the rest.”

16 “Stop!” Samuel said to Saul. “Let me tell you what the LORD said to me last night.”
“Tell me,” Saul replied.

17 Samuel said, “Although you were once small in your own eyes, did you not become the head of the tribes of Israel? The LORD anointed you king over Israel. 18 And he sent you on a mission, saying, ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.’ 19 Why did you not obey the LORD ? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the LORD ?”

20 “But I did obey the LORD,” Saul said. “I went on the mission the LORD assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. 21 The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the LORD your God at Gilgal.”

22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the LORD,
he has rejected you as king.”

24 Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned. I violated the LORD’s command and your instructions. I was afraid of the people and so I gave in to them. 25 Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD.”

26 But Samuel said to him, “I will not go back with you. You have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you as king over Israel!”

27 As Samuel turned to leave, Saul caught hold of the hem of his robe, and it tore. 28 Samuel said to him, “The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to one of your neighbors—to one better than you. 29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind.”

30 Saul replied, “I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel; come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD your God.” 31 So Samuel went back with Saul, and Saul worshiped the LORD.

32 Then Samuel said, “Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites.”
Agag came to him confidently, thinking, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.”

33 But Samuel said,
“As your sword has made women childless,
so will your mother be childless among women.”
And Samuel put Agag to death before the LORD at Gilgal.

34 Then Samuel left for Ramah, but Saul went up to his home in Gibeah of Saul. 35 Until the day Samuel died, he did not go to see Saul again, though Samuel mourned for him. And the LORD was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel.

King James Version

3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Some comments to prior blogs on facebook claimed that God always gave people a chance to repent. However, that is not true. There are many cases in the bible were innocent children are killed by God. This is one of those cases.

God orders Saul to kill all the men, women, and children of the Amalekites. He does not give the Amalekite children any chance to repent. They are killed because of their parents’ alleged sins.

I included the King James Version of verse 3. Instead of “children and infants” it uses “infants and sucklings.” What can a baby that is still breast feeding possibly have done to deserve being killed by an army of 200,000 men.

What about the pregnant Amalekite women? They were also killed, so their fetuses were aborted.

Saul’s killing of men, women, children, sucklings, and fetuses was not enough to satisfy the bible’s bloodthirsty God, however. Saul spared some animals so he could sacrifice them later. This angered God, who later regretted making Saul king (verse 35). God is regretting that he made a mistake in judgment. God is regretting that he made an error. Therefore, God is not perfect. Of course, anything that kills innocent babies is not perfect.

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Responses

  1. (just a question).. You say because God has regretted making Saul King, is proof that He is not perfect… Well, do you think God regrets it when a human being dies and goes to hell…Of course he does, that is because the human was not made to die and go to hell, but to worship God and live forever…One thing that shows God is perfect, is that he said he will never break His word…He tells us in His word, about the people who will not inherit the kingdom of God…If he said a zillion years ago, that murderers can’t go to heaven without repentance, then it’s just that…now because His word says this, do you honestly think His love for the murderer is gone…No, His love is not gone; thats why he regrets the fact that this person has strayed away and is lost…Same thing with Saul, He regretted making Saul king because this is a person whom God loved dearly, who was now lost and strayed away…Therefore God is not regretting that He made an error; He’s regretting that Saul made an error…. I PRAY THAT THE PERSON WHO MADE THE STATEMENTS ABOUT GOD BEING IMPERFECT REPENTS, BECAUSE BY PUTTING THIS KIND OF INFO ON THE INTERNET, YOU ARE DESTROYING A LOT OF NEW CHRISTIANS MINDS, THOSE WHO ARE NOT YET STRONG IN THE WORD OF GOD, IN ALL ACTUALITY, YOU ARE DOING THE DEVILS WORK…I WONDER IF GOD REGRETS GIVING YOU LIFE, OR GIVING YOU THE INTERNET , OR IS HE REGRETTING THAT (YOU) ARE MAKING A MISTAKE THAT CAN LEAD YOU TO ETERNAL DARKNESS….YOU SHOULD PRAY ABOUT IT TO DUDE… bye bye..

    Tylond Haden
    Gods helper in Christ

    • I think your post speaks for itself.

      If as you say, “God regretted making Saul king…. regretting that Saul made an error”, then God did not know the future and is not omniscient. If God knew Saul was going to make this mistake, then God is at fault for making Saul king in the first place. God’s imperfection is only confirmed by your comments.

      Your comment presupposes God and hell are real. You provide no evidence for either existing.

      Your anger is disturbing. Please seek counseling.

      • You say regretting making Saul king proves God did not know the future.

        But since you only want to quote places that serve your purpose you don’t see the big picture. God does see the big picture and does know. The Bible tells the relative building up to Jesus several times over. Just because people make mistakes and this world is not perfect ( Bible states that too) does not mean God made a mistake just that He loved us enough to give us free will . He teaches us what not to do as a perent would. Like don’t touch fire as it will burn you. But people keep jumping in.

        Also you do not know every detail of the lives of those who passed. You do not know how many they killed or how they treated their children? You don’t know if they were given a chance to repent that you may have missed either.

      • Nor can you prove that God does not exist.
        Your type is all alike. You fear something so you attack it.
        I don’t attack your atheism. I simply chose not to believe it because my faith is enough for me. Your atheism isn’t enough for you so you must justify it by attacking.
        God still loves you and I’m praying for you.

      • Well, hope you burn in hell, dumbass

    • Never read so much garbage in all my life!

      • I agree with you that the bible is garbage.

      • THE BIBLE IS NOT GARBAGE…may God forgive you

    • Why are you yelling. Your idea of God is not perfect. He. Muders/allows murder and his response is, “I’m stronger and better than you” Yahweh is an evil prick

      • Do you know who God was talking about killing? He was telling Saul to destroy the muslims the most evilest people on this earth, but Saul didn’t kill them all that’s why we still have them still today wanting to kill all non believers!

      • Islam was not founded until after 600 CE. Therefore, Saul could not have been killing Muslims

  2. This is an amazing website. You have gone to a great deal of effort to illustrate how horrible the bible is, and how monstrous the god of the bible is. If there really is a god, and if he is good, he will reward you for the selfless sacrifice you have made. We owe you a debt of gratitude. For every young christian you lead away from the god of the bible, there is a lesser chance that the US will be turned into a Talaban-style theocracy. Good for you. God bless.

    • I Pray to GOD that you start believing and understand the Bible, I pray for Wisdom and Love, because no matter what you think about the Bible it will not change the fact that JESUS died for us in the cross (John 3: 16) I am a happy servant of GOD, no one has ever made me happier in my entire life like GOD has, spending time in the presence of the LORD is a wonderful opportunity and an honour, until you understand the importance of having a relationship with GOD you will not enjoy the benefit of having Him in your life, because He is with you but you not paying attention. Jesus loves you,
      Sonia

      • I am the most prayed-for man in Kentucky! Your prayer for me is just another one that your God will not answer.

    • Don’t worry. The Taliban are taking over American as we speak, because American Christians have fallen away from God (the apostacy) and have opened the door to satan. When Shariah law is reigning in this country, and don’t think it can’t happen in America when it is happening in England and France already, then see how you feel being forced to practice Islam! But the good news is, God is merciful and loving. So if you can open your heart to Him, you will be forgiven and the door to Heaven will be opened to you! May it happen!

      • Please keep your posts relevant to the verses discussed.

      • But this merciful and loving God has mandated the murder of children, infants and the unborn by mandating the murder of pregnant women – according to the Bible – so I’m pretty sure he is not Pro-Life nor against the murder of children. According to the book of Samuel; 1Samuel 15 and 3 Samuel – so Im confused, how is this a loving and merciful God?

  3. This is an absolute lie, God never asked to have these people and animals put to death, another plan of Satan to take over the world.

    • You’re right, he didn’t ask, he demanded it. Your statement about another plan of satan is nonsensical.

  4. How about you guys stop flaming on this guy and actually answer his statements in a civilized manner? You’re so sure you’re right.

    Prove it.

    • Oh yes he did order to kill ,READ UR BIBLE OPEN UR EYES C D TRUTH

  5. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. We are told the Amalekites were a wicked people. When God’s judgement comes upon a people, it is first deserved justice, and second a warning to others. Those who commit horrible acts deserve retribution. It is also God’s mercy to remove wicked peoples from the earth so that other peoples may live in peace. It is God’s mercy to spare these infants from being raised in such a wicked society. The Bible makes clear that true justice will come in the afterlife. The innocent children will go into the hands of God. The God who gives life has the right to take it as well.

    • The Amalekite children were not guilty of these horrible crimes. Your approval of their deaths is only evidence of your immorality.

      “The God who gives life has the right to take it as well” and statements like that were used by Nazis to justify the killing of Jewish children.

      • Just curious, what is your stand on abortion?

      • I would never want a rape victim to be forced to give birth to give birth to the child of her rapist. I would not want a woman to die because she could not have an abortion, such as the recent situation in Ireland where a woman from India was killed after being denied the opportunity to abort a fetus that was known to be going to die anyway. For these and many other reasons, I am in favor of a women deciding if there is a need to terminate a pregnancy, preferably when the embryo is in its early stages.

    • @Tommy,

      Its said you cant reply about the morality of Gods actions and directions ? Is it not fairer and easierr to accept that this text was written by some Jews who wanted to justify their greed, so they could invade and take what belongs to the Amalekites ? Is this not a repeat of what the Spanish did, where they claimed to come to preach about God and yet they killed, raped and stole gold. Its sad the exact same thing happens in all the campaigns of the Jews – after each battle we are told of the spoils they take. Why dont the Jews attack poor neighbours ? Why dont they send some rabbis to teach them about god first…instead of resorting to violence each and every time.

    • Amen Tommy I love ur fight for our God u are truly blessed!

  6. My so called immorality is better than the humanist/athiest support … [The remainder of this comment was removed for violating the rules for comments stated in my about section. Please keep comments relevant to the verses being discussed.]

    • please read the gospel of Buddha men rewrote the bible jesus didn’t approve of the old testament they brought a woman before jesus guilty of adultery old testament says to stone her to death he wrote there sins on the ground he didn’t die for our sins yet so we where still under the law but yet he didn’t obey the law why

      • It is admitted, even by many conservative bible scholars, that the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery was added to that passage by later scribes. The oldest manuscripts do not have this story. It is a good example of biblical editing.
        http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/John/Jesus-Forgives-Woman-Taken

      • So wait.. let …me get this right, we have free will, but can still be condemned by it?
        Wow genius are these men who (inspired by God-EXCUSE my sarcasm-) wrote the best contradictions.

        That explains what happened to the welcoming and kind a giving native….who didn’t know Christ but seemed to be more Christ like…ain’t that some shit!!

        Buddha makes more sense… And he being before Christ makes me wonder the kind and compassionate similarity.

  7. In regards to your Hitler statement, Hitler used Evolution (The religion of the Atheist) as the justification of his acts. Hitler was a Socialist. A national Socialist. Mao was an Atheist who was responsible for the death of millions. Stalin’s Soviet Republic was Atheist and was responsible for the death of millions. Atheist sure have a superior morality I guess. Name one nation led by Christian leaders who are responsible for the deaths of millions.

    • In answer to your question, Hitler was a Catholic Christian and he never used evolution. I will provide some of the quotes in which Hitler claimed to be a Christian and in which he persecuted Atheists (some are news stories from the 1930s). There are dozens more quotes from Mein Kampf showing that Hitler believed in God. Also, you should read “On The Jews And Their Lies” by Protestant Christianity founder Martin Luther at http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm. Hitler was just following the 8 step plan created by the Christian Luther. Also, none of the nations you mentioned were lead by humanists.

      1. Adolf Hitler: The Nazi Party Represents Positive Christianity
      “We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession….”
      – Article 20 of the program of the German Workers’ Party (later named the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, NSDAP)

      2. Adolf Hitler: I am a Catholic
      I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.

      – Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941
      3. Adolf Hitler: Religious Life as the Highest and Most Desirable Ideal
      I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.

      – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 1
      4. Adolf Hitler: Christianity and the Holy German Reich
      As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven.

      – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 3
      5. Adolf Hitler: Significance of the Religion of Love
      The more abstractly correct and hence powerful this idea will be, the more impossible remains its complete fulfillment as long as it continues to depend on human beings… If this were not so, the founders of religion could not be counted among the greatest men of this earth… In its workings, even the religion of love is only the weak reflection of the will of its exalted founder; its significance, however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality.

      – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

      6. Adolf Hitler: Personification of the Devil
      ….the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.

      – Adolf Hitler (following the position of Martin Luther), Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
      7. Adolf Hitler: Christians Should Deal with Atheistic Jews
      And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests. But at that time Christ was nailed to the Cross for his attitude towards the Jews; whereas our modern Christians enter into party politics and when elections are being held they debase themselves to beg for Jewish votes. They even enter into political intrigues with the atheistic Jewish parties against the interests of their own Christian nation.

      – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

      8. Adolf Hitler: As a Christian, I Feel that My Lord and Savior was a Fighter
      My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. …Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. …

      – Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922

      3. Adolf Hitler: Secular Schools Cannot be Tolerated
      Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith …we need believing people.

      – Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant

      4. Adolf Hitler: We Will Fight the Atheistic Movement
      We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

      – Adolf Hitler, Speech in Berlin, October 24, 1933

      5. The New York Times Story: “Atheist Hall Converted.”
      “In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi resurgence was the national headquarters of the German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant church authorities have opened a bureau for advice to the public in church matters. Its chief object is to win back former churchgoers and assist those who have not previously belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church membership. The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the national revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It had about 500,000 members…”

      – The New York Times, May 14, 1933, page 2, on Hitler’s outlawing atheistic and freethinking groups in the Spring of 1933, after the Enabling Act authorizing Hitler to rule by decree

      • You also forgot to mention that Jews were not the only ones Hitler persecuted.
        Also proclaiming to be a Catholic then discussing the Holy German Reich ?? Ok that’s certainly not in Catholic teachings or the Bible. Also stating each man turns to his own heaven?? Hmm it doesn’t seem to me that if he was a Catholic he was following anything in the Bible. He contradicts it twice in that statement alone.
        A person stating that they follow a religion and stating it is why they do what they do , then twisting and doing the opposite of what it teaches is purely a fault of the person.
        He did not follow what he said he did. He just used it to forward what he wanted.

      • Christians were the overwhelming religious majority in Germany during World War II, as was their ally Italy. It was more than just Hitler who committed the genocides, but there was a long Christian tradition of genocides. Read the German Martin Luther’s “On The Jews And Their Lies” for a background of German Christian racism. It includes an 8 step plan to eliminate the Jews.
        http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers.htm
        http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm
        http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers2.htm
        http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm
        http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers4.htm
        http://www.religioustolerance.org/god_cana.htm
        http://www.religioustolerance.org/god_cana0.htm

      • You didn’t address what I said really

      • I have tried to. You have made over 10 comments, many of those with multiple questions, and I can not spend all day responding to you.

      • Hitler killed more than just Jews. And wanted an Aryian race. Not Biblical or Catholic. People allowed themselves to be lead by him instead of God. Again a mistake of people . Because they tried to back their actions with claiming a religion that never told them to– you place blame on it instead of them not truly following it.

      • There is little difference between Hitler claiming Arians were a master race and Jews claiming they were God’s chosen people. Up until recent years, Christians claimed they inherited the role of God’s chosen people from the Jews, who lost that title by rejecting Jesus. Christians then used that as a basis for multiple crusades and genocides.

  8. Absolutely no one believes Hitler used Christian ideas or values to justify his actions. He did use the evolutionary concept of natural selection, or survival of the fittist to justify the killing of what he believed were inferior races. Hitlers policies and beliefs were very similar to the progressive Margaret Sangers (the founder of Planned Parenthood) beliefs on eugenics and the races. Wikipedia states the Margaret Sangers father was an atheist and activist. One could assume she acquired some of her moral foundation from him. Just compare Hitlers beliefs on races with George Bernard Shaw (another progressive who claimed to be an atheist for at least part of his life) and you will see many similarities. The eugenics movement which was the backbone of Hitlers beliefs and justification of his actions originated with Progressive Atheists. I just ask anyone to know the truth to look this up on google..

  9. What rule did I violate that caused you to delete my post. You called me immoral for justifying God’s actions. I merely pointed out a contradiction between your moral judgement on God and myself with certain humanist/atheistic views. I did not make it personal (even though you did by calling me immoral). The post was relevant to the topic. So why did you choose to delete it?

    • Your god’s immoral actions were in the verses. Your claims about “humanistic/atheist” views were not. By the way, humanism and atheist are not the same thing. Atheism is the conclusion that the claims of theists are false. Humanism is a philosophy on how peoples and societies should interact.

  10. I used this in a debate with a friend. Thanks for having EXACTLY what I needed!

  11. […] […]

  12. Just wanted to point out how different of a tune the people who justify/rationalize God’s commands to kill women, infants and men would be whistling if these verses appeared in the Qur’an or in another religion’s text. The Ten Commandments do not have an asterisk next to “Thou shall not kill” indicating *except for me-God. Look, we have been conditioned to believe and to have an image of God as a benevolent, loving being. These parts of the bible do not reflect that. Which leaves two choices: 1) these verses are not the word of God or 2) God is not the benevolent being that we’ve been led to believe. Honestly, if I (or anyone) went on a murder spree that involved the slaughter of infants and women; as well as men and said that God commanded me to–the result would be do NOT pass go; do NOT collect $200: straight to jail. Use your brain to think. It has nothing to do with not believing in God. Atheist or not something created us. Just look at our DNA. There’s an order to things (or at least we perceive an order to the world around us).

    • Ok one other thing bothering me is that you say God is immoral. Well who is making the morals? what is immoral to you and what teachings are you basing it on?

      • Our morality is part of our evolution as social animals. Confuscious said “do not do anything to anyone that you would not want done to yourself” 1500 years before Jesus was alleged to have been born. This is the basis of humanism. Humanists do not approve of slavery because almost all people do not want to be slaves. The bible permits Israelites to buy slaves from foreign countries, own them for life, and then beat them until they are uncounscious. I would much rather follow the morals of humanism than the savage and immoral teachings of the bible.

      • If morality is part of evolution — who is dictating it?
        If no one is dictating it , how does it exist?
        And finally if morality is part of evolution it should be improving , which it isn’t. Evolution is said to make things better but morality such as it is has not improved. I guess you think we are evolving backwards or just not at all.

      • Morality has improved thanks to humanism. In western countries that have been impacted by humanism, slavery has been abolished and women and minorities have been given equal rights.

        Your terms such as “it should be improving” and “evolving backwards” show that you are very ignorant of evolution.

      • Have you ever read the New Testament?
        Does it say in the Bible God told the Israelites to go out, get slaves and violently beat them?
        You pick and choose but will never see the whole picture.
        And so if everyone decided they wanted to be slaves tomorrow that would make it ok?
        This means to you there is no right and wrong. I mean what if everyone decided it was ok to go kill people tomorrow, then in your book it would stop being immoral?

      • Yes, I have read the New Testament, all the Christian apocryphal books, the gnostic texts of the Nag Hamadi Scrolls, and the writings of Eusebius, among many others.

        Leviticus 25:44-46 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
        Exodus 21 20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property

        Most people are not going to decide to do things which are harmful to them.

        Never have I said there is no right or wrong. I have pointed out that the basis for my morality is the elimination of unnecessary suffering, not a book that permits people to own slaves for life and beat them until they are unconscious.

      • And if Confuscious said that and the Bible says ” Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”
        Then in a way , regardless of who said it first , aren’t you kind of doing what the Bible that you keep fighting says to?

      • I do not do everything the Bible says to do. There are some good proverbs and other pieces of advice, but most of the bible is filthy and repugnant.

      • You really aren’t focusing on the big picture. I am not the one who is ignorant. You are the one who sees only what they want and quotes only what forwards what they want to prove. There is a whole messed up world out there and if you truly believe you can put the blame on one religion and brush everything else under the rug I truly don’t know.
        There is no point talking to you anymore. You explore only the information that makes you look good and ignore the rest.

      • Nowhere have I put the blame for the whole messed up world on one religion. I am merely showing that the verses of the bible are immoral, have internal contradications, and contradications with external evidence from science, history, and archaeology.

        Christians often try to talk about the “big picture” when shown immoral verses in the bible. This is a very common defense. The “big picture” really means “please ignore all the immoral and contradictory texts in the bible.” This blog is about forcing people to address the bible verses rarely read on Sunday, such as when God orders Saul to kill babies.

      • Oh boy you keep sticking your foot in your mouth!!!
        Seriously what world are you in or is it just a little bubble???
        Most people aren’t going to choose to do things that are harmful to them??? Tell those in the hospital from lung cancer from smoking that story. Tell those killed from drunk drivers that one. Seriously just tell the story to the guy with the hangover.
        Tell those with so many diseases from fooling around with who ever they like.
        No people do things to hurt themselves all of the time. There are still diseases and wars and yes humanists take part in these too.
        Seriously , you just keep floating on your imaginary cloud I’m done.

      • You are taking someting I said regarding slavery and extrapolating it to other things such as drug abuse. Perhaps I would have been more clear if I had said most people will not permit themselves to be purchased by another human being and be under their control to the point that they can be beaten until they are uncounscious. You need to deal with the immorality of the verses being discussed.

      • I’m just really glad to see that the humanist was the only one who kept his cool throughout this discussion, avoided personal attacks, employed rational thought, and by any measure won the argument.

    • Let me get right to the point in this reply.the contents of the subject,of the best.the point is further text here in,the subject.,The hunt to kill baby jesus.,gods ‘only son.The order to kill baby jesus is that of a bible king,thousand of new born babies were kill in the hunt for baby jesus,why,sin.What did god ,jesus father do to comply with the bible king’s order.?Yes jesus love me for the bible tell me so.yes! in god we trust,yes by faith we all will one day see god,where there will be no tomorror or today,yes I am god of the holy bible,Iam the Alpha and the Omega,your god my god,can he god be more.The late rev.james cleveland song,where is your faith.Faith! amen-Henry B.Clemons,Jr. 3/16/2013

  13. Ok bottom line — Bible — some people use it to spread hatred and attack others . They take small sections and use them to argue and spread negativity.
    Others take just the short good from it.
    Others take the whole thing in context and use it to learn and grow. The use it to be stonger better people and spread love and caring to others. They use it to help people and spread love .
    I’d prefer to be someone who sees the big picture cares about others and spreads love.

    • I spread love as well. That is why I am a humanist.

      • You spread blame as most do. And when the world ends as the buck keeps getting pushed to someone else let’s see where your views get you.

      • I agree with a lot of what you have to say.

    • Bob, the world may never end. However, it will change from the way you presently perceive it. If it does end, it will likely be because it falls into the sun and burns up. But do not worry. We both will be long gone before then!

  14. Well this is what I believe. The original Bible was written in Hebrew thousands of years ago. It has been rewritten and translated many times. Even the original Bible WAS NOT WRITTEN BY GOD, but instead written by “inspired” prophets. So, even the Bible we presently read is an inaccurate compilation of misconceptions, human input and outright lies, with a few remaining “facts”. God has not told anybody to kill anybody else. That is Bull Shit! God has not told any body to enslave anybody else. This too is BS!
    And ministers do not preach against sin. If they did, all the MONEY would leave the church. Problem is that mankind worships the prophets, Mohammed and Jesus and not God. Mohammed and Jesus would be nothing without God.
    God is perfect, makes no mistakes and has no regrets.
    We constantly lie on God!!!

  15. I know several pastors who have second jobs so they are able to support their family and still preach.

    • That is nice, but I have no idea how that relates to these verses. I know several police officers who work second jobs as security guards. There are “exotic dancers” who load packages at UPS. Lots of people work multiple jobs.

  16. It refers to the comment above mine.

    1 Samuel 15:33 But Samuel said,
    “As your sword has made women childless,
    so will your mother be childless among women.”

    In the above passage it is referring to the Agar the king of the Amalekites. So God should have done nothing in retribution of all the men, women, and children that were killed at the hand of the Amalekites. Is this your idea of mercy to let these people continue killing and hurting innocent people? Do you understand that God is both merciful and JUST and meted out the same punishment to the Amalekites that they had done mercilessly to others?

    Unfortunately innocent children died as a result, they didn’t have the social welfare services to take care of these children. It was considered a punishment for someone else to inherit your land other than your own children.

    Amalekites were also Baal worshiping people, and to worship their deities they would have orgies at the temple and sacrifice their own children to their deities. This kind of worship is mentioned in the Bible after leaving slavery when the golden calf was created and there was a mass orgy and drunkenness.

    God is merciful and gives many chances, even to His own people who disobeyed him.

    • God did not give these “innocent children” any second chance. The USA did not kill German children because of what Hitler did. It is sad that Chrisitanity makes you such an immoral person who will justify killing innocent children.

  17. You know is sad …that you fell this way about God but let me ask you something ,let’s say that you live a holy and santifide life for the omight god ..let’s say..that the whole us is living a life for God and is prosperes and bounty..but some evil people came in the middle of the night and rape your family ..gets all your money…burt tall buildings whit family and friends..brings the lively hood of you your children dawn..and a profet gos and tell the precident ….god say go and Burt them all even they children..BECOUSE even them of small ege are told to heat the people of god ,so a new generation of evil will not come agaist your home our country…so the president goes and kills them all but brings contaminated nuclear stuff to us and God will say ” man I should have not let this man rule couse he does not listen…kind like you you are not listening to god eather you want to understand ,what you want to understand ..you want to say what you want to say …BECOUSE he made you to chose..nothing you say is going to change Him maybe he wrote this especially for you…so you do your own investigation to get to the heart of God,,,going back to the story if some one hurts your family and then God goes after them and wipes them of the face of the earth..won’t you fill proud of g

    God..but after he does this for you ..you your own self decide that you are going to start prostituting your self,kiling,blasfemians ,to God,see is your decition so god will say ,,,o man I regret helping this so,and so person..but that is why he send Jesus to put him self for you and me and say . Forgive them they don’t know what they are saying or doing …and that is why in this very moment god had not stricken you death ..BECOUSE of Jesus he intercedes for your estupidities..I am some one proud of you trying to see who god REALY is my suggestion for you is be humble and he will show you who he REALY is ..and when he does you will be fascinated amen..

    • Good Lord, that was really eloquent.

  18. Many of you are trying to think for ,or like GOD when He tells us our thoughts are not like his , I accept what he does though I do not fully understand them .

    • You said,
      “Many of you are trying to think for ,or like GOD when He tells us our thoughts are not like his , I accept what he does though I do not fully understand them .”
      If this were a story in the Koran about Allah killing babies, would you accept the following statement from a Muslim as a valid excuse for Allah’s immoral act?
      “Many of you are trying to think for ,or like ALLAH when He tells us our thoughts are not like his , I accept what he does though I do not fully understand them .”

      • If god is ok with killing babies, he must be ok with flying airplanes into sky scrapers too. People need to listen to their own inner voice about what is right and wrong. If god tells you to do something you know is evil, like tying up your son and sacrificing him on an alter, you need to question this. Maybe checking yourself into an insane assylum is the correct response, rather than blindly following the word of the Lord.

  19. interesting to read all of the comments however, sticking to the original questions and verses if you study and read you’ll find out that the orders weren’t for right then it was for later and those that didn’t get killed you’ll read in the book of Esther that and Amalek by the name of Haman plotted to kill all the Jew which would have affected the lineage of Jesus.

  20. meow

  21. what is the original meaning of ‘Wonderful’? A proper assessment in the right context will give some enlightenment on many an issue. Man is limited by what is exposed/revealed to him, but many decide that the limits of their knowledge is the limit of everything. Back in the day, my biology textbook said lizards move on their bellies (that is, not with their legs), contradicted what I had seen live. Of course now we know better – Agama, crocodiles, komodo dragon, etc walk. The secret things are with God…

  22. Could those Amalekites have become somehow corrupted together with their animals like happened in Genesis 6?

    • Do you have any evidence that sons of god were mating with earth women and giving birth to giants as described in Genesis 6? If the verses of Genesis 6 were in the Koran instead of the bible, which you believe they were actual events or would you think they were legends of ancients tribes?

  23. How dare you imply that God is not perfect!!

  24. If a and b then c. If a and b are wrong then c is also wrong. A) God must be bloodthirsty since he ordered the deaths of an entire people group. True or false. False. God is a righteous judge yet he also does not delight in the death of the wicked. He hands down judgment because the wicked have no excuse and his judgment is perfect every time. (Read Job.) B) God expressed regret over making Saul king therefore God must have made a mistake. True or false. False. God doesn’t make mistakes. Humans do and God allows them to. Several times the Bible says “It repented the Lord” such as in Genesis 6 where God was so grieved with man’s wickedness that he decided to wipe them out except for Noah and his family.Similar situation to Saul being king. God is so grieved over sin that He is sorry (for lack of a better word) for making man or Israel to have a king which was something He was against. By this we know that Gos allows things to happen that He knows beforehand will grieve Him. And I believe He does this because He knows the end from the beginning and vice versa and is working everything to an ultimate good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. C) God must be imperfect since he made a mistake in judgment. True or false. Obviously false. I’ve heard it explained that God has an active will and a passive will. Whether or not there are two distict wills doesn’t really matter. God being actively involved is something clearly taught in the Bible but maybe something not everyone can see or recognize. God also allows reaping and sowing. God is also grieved by our wickedness. It is not imperfection for a father to allow his child to make a poor choice and then feel sorrow along with the child over the choice and its consequences. I think it’s the same with God. He hurts with us as we hurt and He loves us enough to let us make choices because He wants us to learn from them and return like the prodigal son.

    • “A) God must be bloodthirsty since he ordered the deaths of an entire people group. True or false. False. ”
      The babies were not guilty of any crimes.

      “B) God expressed regret over making Saul king therefore God must have made a mistake. True or false. False. God doesn’t make mistakes.”
      You merely state an assertion. You cannot prove god exists or that he or she does not make mistakes.

      “C) God must be imperfect since he made a mistake in judgment. True or false. Obviously false.”
      It is not obvious, and assuming the god of the bible is real, it is not false. The god of the bible admits he made mistakes, such as before he floods the world.

      If you saw a man in the process of raping and murdering a child, would you immediately stop that man from doing so if you had the power?

  25. BUT those were not full humans but a mixed of the fallen..whose had offspring with humans..

    • You know what? You could say that about any enemy. It is traditional in any war for both sides to claim that they are on the side of the angels and the “other” is figuratively, or sometimes even literally, the Devil. Hugo Chavez claimed that the pulpit at the United Nations still smells of sulfur because George Bush had once stood there. The Ayatolah claims that not just the U.S. president but in fact the entire nation of the United States is literally “the Great Satan”. So that gives them the right to kill us without troubling their conscience, because, like, we’re the Devil. Were the Amalekites not fully human, but mixed with the Fallen, and could they therefore be slaughtered without mercy? Sure, why not, they were the enemy, right? Anybody who can’t see through language like that is retarded.

  26. God is perfect. He regretted the the poor ” free will” choice that Saul made which obviously, He has minimal control over (Saul is not a robot). God’s regret shames Saul, not God. The Holy Bible is full of good faith God has in humanity only to be dishonored. Even still He loves us. God knows how bloodlines end and how they would interfere with the bigger plan. Good strawman argument through. Praying for you!😇

    • Did God know what Saul was going to do before Saul did it?

      • Yes he did he knows everything … there’s a bigger picture that us mortals could never understand or see.. read the book job in the bible perfect example… please really understand the bible god is perfect and just and loves us but he does say the ones that are evil can not understand his words or his ways it was coded for a very good reason to keep Satan from his greater plan and so he couldn’t mock him and decive gods people anymore then he can now. God bless all of you jesus died for us read up on history on witness that did not belive in him or god but yet they wrote scrolls claiming all the amazing things he done they witnessed

      • This is exactly the same apology:
        “Yes Allah did Allah knows everything … there’s a bigger picture that us mortals could never understand or see.. please really understand the Koran god is perfect and just and loves us but he does say the ones that are evil can not understand his words or his ways it was coded for a very good reason to keep Satan from his greater plan and so he couldn’t mock him and decive gods people anymore then he can now. Allah bless all of you … read up on history on witness that did not belive in Muhammad or Allah but yet they wrote scrolls claiming all the amazing things Muhammad done they witnessed”

  27. Oh isn’t it ironic that you go to hell after all this, huh edhensley

    • Do you have any evidence of hell?

  28. have you ever been born again? adolf hitler would b proud of America we MURDER millions of babies and adolf hilter had six millions Jews murder and we say we are a Christian Nation.

    • “As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” Article 11, Treaty of Tripoli. Unanimously ratified by the senate and signed by president John Adams in 1797. Our founding fathers were clear that we are not a Christian nation.

  29. Hilarious God orders dead fetus’ and infants. Can’t wait to use this against those retarded anti-abortion protesters


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