Leviticus 12
Purification After Childbirth
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding. 6 ” ‘When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. 7 He shall offer them before the LORD to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood.
” ‘These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. 8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’ ”
Accodrding to the Bible, a woman is defiled by giving birth. Furthermore, giving birth to a girl defiles her twice as much as giving birth to a boy (since she remains unclean twice as long). A woman is ceremonial unclean for 7 days and must wait 33 days to be purified after giving birth to a son. If she gives birth to a daughter, she is ceremonial unclean for 14 days and must wait 66 days to be purified.
This is just another example of bizarre laws in the bible. It also provides another example of how the Bible values women as much less worthy as men. There is no logic or reason behind either of these laws. There is especially no reason why giving birth to a girl makes a woman twice as unclean as giving birth to a boy.
Bible Verses Rarely Read on Sunday 
You’ll disagree, i know, but many of these laws require cultural context not given in the Bible. The context makes these laws practical rather than ‘bizarre’ and actually, again, shows the value of women (the law is going against the cultural grain of the period).
I was in a group and a feminist brought up this law as ‘sickening’. I had no response, but a woman who was an obstetrician who worked in Afghanistan noted that in Afghanistan (a culture similar to the O.T. Jews by today’s standards) if a woman has a girl the man will want to get her pregnant again immediately, which isn’t good for the woman. If she has a boy, there is no felt need to have another child right away.
Similar views of women were prevalent in that time too. If a girl was born the husband would want a son right away, which isn’t good for the woman. The obstetrician said the extra days unclean would mean that the man could not touch her for that entire time, giving her time to rest before trying to have another baby.
By: adam on February 10, 2010
at 8:27 am
At the very end of this long list of blogs, I have entered a new idea. Interested? Check it out.
By: Victor on June 9, 2015
at 10:37 pm
Once again, Adam, you are applying your assumptions and presuppositions to the Bible.
Where in this passage (or anywhere else in the Bible) is there any indication that the purpose of these rules is to prevent the birth of children? Nowhere.
What does “She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary” have to do with a man having sex with her? Nothing.
Where does this passage state that these rules are “good for the woman?” Nowhere.
You are applying modern humanistic thought in order to justify ancient illogical laws. Your thoughts, however, are found nowhere in the scriptures.
By: edhensley on February 10, 2010
at 7:39 pm
Ed Hensley, you’ve posted many Bible quotes from passages hard to understand from a modern context. I’d like to find a collection of these I can refer people to and perhaps you can point me to a coherent collection. My reason is because people are pointing to similar passages from the Quran and I’d like to say we Jews and Christians have our own difficult to relate to quotes in our holy books. I find your scrutiny helpful.
By: Carl House on September 19, 2010
at 4:37 pm
Carl,
You may find a comprehensive collection at http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/. I
Notice that it also includes sections on the Quran and The Book of Mormon. I must admit, I have not read these sections that much.
Thanks!
Ed
By: edhensley on September 19, 2010
at 7:08 pm
To me when it comes to understanding certain aspects of the bible,you must also consider customs of those persons,their ways. Wouldnt it be wiser to take to properly study their ways as to why they do such things .
I am skeptical of the bible at times,but instead of stayin ignorant i do as much research i can to quench it.
In modern day society,there are still certain civilizations with adhere to the tradition,no matter how old it is.
And look at India where child marriages are legal.But do we know why parents give their ‘babies’ to much elder men who could be considered their grandparents,or do we criticize on a by stander’s P.O.V with out conducting sufficient research.Or why they take the cow to be sacred,whereas many countries prefer cows barbecued.
By: Nes on September 1, 2013
at 1:04 am
At the very end of this long list of blogs, I have entered a new idea. Interested? Check it out.
By: Victor on June 7, 2015
at 3:52 pm
assumptions are required, I have them, you have them.
you assume that because the meaning isn’t stated in the text there is no meaning in the law at all. It’s reasonable that meaning is implied because laws do not (typically) express meaning.
Examples? These are pulled at random, and, believe it or not, i didn’t even read them until they were pasted below! ha ha!
Here’s from an ancient law (The Code of Hammurabi)
If any one bring an accusation of any crime before the elders, and does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if it be a capital offense charged, be put to death.
And here’s a modern law
§ 1232a. Prohibition against Federal control of education
No provision of any applicable program shall be construed to authorize any department, agency, officer, or employee of the United States to exercise any direction, supervision, or control over the curriculum, program of instruction, administration, or personnel of any educational institution, school, or school system, or over the selection of library resources, textbooks, or other printed or published instructional materials by any educational institution or school system, or to require the assignment or transportation of students or teachers in order to overcome racial imbalance.
(although at first glance it may look like meaning is given, that last sentence is not the reason for the law, it is the law itself. Why they can’t do those things to over come racial imbalance is the meaning of the law, and it’s not stated)
and here is something in the middle (Magna Carta)
(8) No widow shall be compelled to marry, so long as she wishes to remain without a husband. But she must give security that she will not marry without royal consent, if she holds her lands of the Crown, or without the consent of whatever other lord she may hold them of.
none explicitly express meaning in their laws, and yet you demand meaning expressed in the Biblical laws. Why?
By: adam on February 12, 2010
at 3:19 am
Adam,
I did a search on the word “mean” in this blog. I never wrote it prior to this comment! You, on the other hand, have written the word “mean” or “meaning” 9 times! How can you accuse me of trying to say there is no meaning in this law when I never even used that word?
You claimed the reason for this biblical law was to protect women who just had children. You have no supporting evidence from the bible for that claim. If you are permitted to dream up this reason, why can’t anyone else dream up any other reason?
Furthermore, if your reason were the one true reason for this law, why couldn’t God just say “Men should not have sex with their wives for 66 days after child birth.” This would be much more clear and much more effective.
Your reason for “protection” of women does not really protect them. What is to stop a man from having sex with his wife 33 days after giving birth to a son? NOTHING! Your claim that men are more likely to instantly impregnate women after giving birth to a daughter may be true, but this law does not prohibit men from having sex with their wives 66 days after birth – it only does so for daughters. Therefore, this law does not protect the health of women.
By: edhensley on February 16, 2010
at 1:30 am
This example of a bizarre law, and other examples elsewhere on the site (and in the OT), perhaps substantiate what Ezekiel wrote as attributed to God in Ezekiel 20:25 — “I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live…” (NAS).
By: Jess on July 24, 2010
at 7:09 pm
I was puzzled by this when I read it but Adams logic makes a lot of sense.
By: Scotland on August 3, 2010
at 11:09 pm
Adam’s “logic”, unfortunately for you, is not stated in the verses. It would be more logical for the bible to state “It is a sin for man to have sex with his wife until 66 days after giving birth. The reason for this law is to allow the woman’s body to heal.” This is Adam’s logic. Once again, these words do not appear in the verses.
Adam’s “logic” assumes that a man will not have sex with his wife on the 34th day after the birth of a son. His logic assumes that men only want to have sex in order to cause a pregnancy. These assumptions go against human nature.
By: edhensley on August 3, 2010
at 11:28 pm
Knock and it shall open, seek and you shall find ,ask and it shall be given thee.Men can not receive things of God with a carnal mind because they are spiritually discerned.Fall on your knees before God and ask Him that you may know His truth.For the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom.
By: Kevin Shaffer on November 6, 2015
at 3:01 pm
This statement is no different from yours.
Knock and it shall open, seek and you shall find ,ask and it shall be given thee.Men can not receive things of Allah with a carnal mind because they are spiritually discerned.Fall on your knees before Allah and ask Him that you may know His truth.For the fear of the Allah is the beginning of all wisdom.
By: edhensley on November 7, 2015
at 7:40 pm
Just when the Octomom (Nadya Suleman) thought things could not get any worse, Now she finds out she’s “unclean” for 330 days (6 males, 2 females) has to locate 8 one year old lambs and I cant even count that many birds.
By: Mike M on August 20, 2010
at 12:59 am
Something I’ve heard… The Caananite tribes living near the Israelites during the time in which God set this law had a nasty habit of sacrificing baby girls to their gods. If the mother was considered ‘unclean’ and couldn’t go near anything sacred, the baby wouldn’t be going there either. This law was designed to protect the women and girls in question.
By: AJ on September 21, 2010
at 6:54 am
AJ,
Adam posted that the law was put in place to protect the health of the mothers, since fathers of girls would want to have sex with the mothers immediately to sire boys. Now you claim this was done to protect the girls from sacrifice.
You both have the same problem: there is no statement anywhere in the verses to support either one of your claims.
Anybody can make up a “reason” for a verse. This does not make absurd verses valid. Do you accept all Muslim “reasons” for absurd verses in the Koran?
By: edhensley on September 25, 2010
at 1:37 am
My dad has been writing a book exactly on point with this blog, I have emailed him the web address so perhaps he could pick up a couple pointers. Wonderful Job.
By: houston dental implant restoration on December 6, 2010
at 11:37 am
Hi, can you furnish the name of that book, please??? Thanks so much!
By: Penny on May 22, 2017
at 3:57 am
Ed hensley,
There is something to be said about the context in which the laws were given. Adam and AJ are both correct about the ancient culture the Jews were in at the time of the exodus.
You’re scoffing at 8 verses of 1400’s BC Scripture from a 21st century perspective, while neglecting the background of the culture into which it was given.
I would offer a response further than Adam & AJ, but your whole basis is equivalent to reading Tsunetomo or some other ancient Japanese writer..and laughing when he mentions taking their shoes off when entering the home. Dont understand the culture, not worth the time.
By: Blue on May 12, 2011
at 8:26 am
Thanks for agreeing that modern humanism is morally superior to verses written in 1400 BCE.
By: edhensley on May 22, 2011
at 1:02 pm
Perhaps the context of the Jews should in fact be taken into consideration. Further reading in Leviticus, specifically Leviticus chapter 27, gives much insight into the great value that Jewish culture at the time placed upon women. The chapter goes as far as to specify exactly how much less than a man a woman was worth: depending on the circumstances, 40-50%.
By: Ron F on June 26, 2011
at 11:24 am
After reading some of the comments, I have to say –
So then, why was a woman also considered unclean during her period?
What possible health benefit or rescue from human sacrifice or any other benefit could this have had? None. There was absolutely no benefit for the woman or for anyone else.
She could not visit a temple during her period. No one could even sit in a seat in which she had sat in – or they would become contaminated too. Her husband could not have sex with her. Yet there is no harm to either the woman or the man in having sex during this time.
Blood from periods or after a birth simply wasn’t understood in those days. It’s just ignorance.
It can’t be explained away in any other way.
By: Sarah on July 18, 2011
at 6:14 am
See my response below, it is you who are ignorant.
By: Jose Antonio Cossio on July 23, 2011
at 8:17 am
Jose,
I will not let you call people ignorant. Further abuse of your fellow commentors will not be tolerated.
Ed
By: edhensley on July 24, 2011
at 10:53 pm
Husbands in that time had many wives, and each wife would have her ‘turn’ with the husband. Although it may be possible to become pregnant on your period the chances are nowhere near as high as they would be a week or two later on in the month.
If a husband took his turn with one wife whilst she was on her period, he would be depriving her of the oppurtunity to have children. This is why women were considered ‘unclean’- to protect their chances of pregnancy. The unclean issue is that women did not have pads or tampons but sat on bales of hay in the ‘red tent’. Since they could hardly carry hay under their skirt, going into the temple would result in splashing blood on the floor and any seat they sat on, causing great embarrassment. Husbands might force wives to do these things without these protective laws.
By: Anna on December 1, 2012
at 4:35 pm
The bible supports polygamy, has many examples of biblical patriarchs who were polygamous, and has laws that presuppose polygamy is not wrong. Thank you for admitting that the bible is a reflection of “that time” and should not be used as a guide for modern times.
By: edhensley on December 2, 2012
at 1:51 pm
The author of this article is a very ignorant man. The dates of purification (40 days total for man and 80 for women) has nothing to do with male superiority. It is hard to believe how that would be the case. The real reason has to do with tradition passed from the creation story. Adam was caused to sleep for 6 days and entered Eden on the 40th day, Eve entered on the 80th day (Jubilees Ch.3). This passage and others (like the shellfish and four legs quote) show the ignorance of the “progressive” mindset. Interesting how Islamist, fundementalist Christians, and Atheist have the same view points of the Bible.
By: Jose Antonio Cossio on July 23, 2011
at 8:16 am
Jose,
Are you Catholic?
Ed
By: edhensley on July 24, 2011
at 10:46 pm
I have quoted Jubilees 3 below. It only supports my observations that (1) women were unclean after the birth of girls twice as long as after the birth of boys and (2) women are not valued as much in the bible as men and provides a second source, even if the source is apocryphal.
Jubilees 3 from http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/jub/jub15.htm
4. And the Lord said unto us: “It is not good that the man should be alone: let us make a helpmeet for him.” 5. And the Lord our God caused a deep sleep to fall upon him, and he slept, and He took for the woman one rib from amongst his ribs, and this rib was the origin of the woman from amongst his ribs, and He built up the flesh in its stead, and built the woman. 6. And He awaked Adam out of his sleep and on awaking he rose on the sixth day, and He brought her to him, and he knew her, and said unto her: “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she will be called [my] wife; because she was taken from her husband.” 7. Therefore shall man and wife be one, and therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh. 8. In the first week was Adam created, and the rib–his wife: in the second week He showed her unto him: and for this reason the commandment was given to keep in their defilement, for a male seven days, and for a female twice seven days. 9. And after Adam had completed forty days in the land where he had been created, we brought him into the Garden of Eden to till and keep it, but his wife they brought in on the eightieth day, and after this she entered into the Garden of Eden. 10. And for this reason the commandment is written on the heavenly tables in regard to her that giveth birth: “if she beareth a male, she shall remain in her uncleanness seven days according to the first week of days, and thirty and three days shall she remain in the blood of her purifying, and she shall not touch any hallowed thing, nor enter into the sanctuary, until she accomplisheth these days which (are enjoined) in the case of a male child. 11. But in the case of a female child she shall remain in her uncleanness two weeks of days, according to the first two weeks, and sixty-six days in the blood of her purification, and they will be in all eighty days.” 12. And when she had completed these eighty days we brought her into the Garden of Eden, for it is holier than all the earth besides, and every tree that is planted in it is holy. 13. Therefore, there was ordained regarding her who beareth a male or a female child the statute of those days that she should touch no hallowed thing, nor enter into the sanctuary until these days for the male or female child are accomplished. 14. This is the law and testimony which was written down for Israel, in order that they should observe (it) all the days.
By: edhensley on July 24, 2011
at 11:01 pm
they did not have sanitary towels and tampax. maybe monthlies got quite messy and it would have been quite embarrassing to leak in the tabernacle.
optimum time for blood clotting well after a circumcision is on the 8th day. boys are more at risk of early death than girls. the unclean times gave mother and baby time to bond and prevent spread of infections especially from males who would have done most of the cattle tending as they were a nomadic shepherdic tribe.
By: Rachael on August 17, 2011
at 12:22 am
So these little baby boys were tending cattle at the age of 8 days old?
By: edhensley on August 17, 2011
at 1:48 am
No, little 8 day old baby Hebrew boys would not be tending catttle. They most probably would be lying in their mother’s arms recovering from their operation.
Gods wisdom is far more advanced than man’s attempts at gaining knowledge. Often our scientists discover years later that the laws and prohibitions God gave to the original Israelites are beneficial for physical and mental health of the community.
By: rachael on August 19, 2011
at 1:07 am
Your replies have no logical reason why the length of time women were unclean after the birth of a girl was twice as long as that of the birth of a boy.
By: edhensley on August 30, 2011
at 11:16 am
Being a small fish with lots of larger enemies surrounding it, males were very important. GIrls dont make very good soldiers – its as simple as that.
By: futurebug on September 12, 2011
at 3:03 am
Thank you Ed for posting this, it amuses me to see the lengths the “faithful” will go to twist immorality in the bible to make black appear white, obviously the reason for this is they start with the presuppositions that 1. the bible is the word of god and 2. their morality comes from god therefore how can anything god said be immoral. If you believe your morality comes from god then the logical inference is that if these “immoral” bible passages are in fact indicative of gods morality then the “faithful” would have to takes these atrocities as the new moral standard. The fact that you believe certain things to be moral or immoral based on supposed standards set by a god is as far as im concerned completely immoral.
By: dontactthemaggot (@blindrighteye) on September 21, 2011
at 10:53 pm
Hi future bug I like your answer about males being important to become soldiers, though I don’t see what that has to do with the times of uncleanliness during childbirth.
And Hi to dontactthe maggot it’s amusing the lengths the ‘unfaithful’ will go to, to twist the interpretation of the bible to suit their own immorality. In this case ignorance is not bliss. No offence intended. I guess we are all entitled to be a little bit biased depending on which side of the fence we are sitting on.
So I will give you the female bias to the bible as we are so often inclined to look at things from the male perspective only; always seeing the female as victim with many women unfortunately adopting the same stance.
Hi Ed, the answer to your query is that during the birth of a girl there are two females involved in the birthing process but, only one when the mother has a boy. Therefore both females are respected by receiving 33 days each totalling as 66 days in all.
During her ‘unclean’ stage the mother has time to recover and is free of all religious obligations. Being considered ‘unclean’ gains her seclusion and helps her mate to understand that God ‘insists’ she has time to herself, as some men may have become belligerent and not be sympathetic to their wives being sore and needing rest.
Remember everything God says or does is for the good of humankind, even though it may take many years of scientific investigations to find out the reasons why.
By: Rachael on October 7, 2011
at 3:28 pm
Nowhere does this passage say that there are 66 days in order to show “respect” to two women. The word “respect” is not found in this passage at all. You simply made this up or parroted an apology someone else made up.
There is no scientific evidence to show that women giving birth to little girls need twice as much recovery time as those giving birth to boys, much less 33 days or 66 days. Your appeal to science in your last statement is absurd.
There is no logical reason provided in the passage for little baby girls making mothers require twice as much purification time as little baby boys. Apologists believe they can make up an answer, apply it and then someone call it logical of even scientific. In doing so, apologists are altering the word of God! The word of God is no longer the bible but the bible plus the word of the apologist. In this case, your response would imply that the word of God is the bible plus the words of Rachel. You are equivocating your words with with bible, and therefore making yourself a God!
By: edhensley on October 8, 2011
at 7:56 pm
@Rachael
The simple fact is those societies in the past always valued males over women. Men are stronger and they fight. Poor Israel, was always being invaded by larger stronger neighbours like Egypt, Babylon, Assyria and Rome.
While many have stated above that this extra unpure days afford protection it ignores the fact, what happened after to the baby girls. Whats to stop someone who believes to sacrifice their daughter to keep the Gods happy after the time has passed. Its fairly evident that for such a law to be made and emphasised so often that the Jewish werent that different from their immediately neighbours who they were sharing the land. This also brings another question, why would they need protection and to be told not to copy their neighbours if Joshua says they were all wiped out from the land during his conquest.
The simple fact is of course these sorts of excuses get very complicated and require lots and lots of additional amendments. I have often heard that one lie requires another and another, while the truth is often simple. Is this not a case of that logic ?
By: mP on December 1, 2011
at 4:47 am
Hi Ed
Correct! I am a god!
As our loving Rabboni Yahsuah said in John 10:34
“Is it not written in your Law; ‘I have said you are gods’?
He was referring to Psalm 82: 6 which says;
‘You are “gods”
You are all sons of The Most High
But you will die like mere men….’
For there is only one Eternal Ed, and that is Our Father which art in heaven.
Also 1 Corinthians 3:16 says;
“Don’t you know that you yourselves are Gods Temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?”
So thank you, you spoke appropriately. Ra Chi El is a god.
But let’s not digress. It is true the word ‘respect’ is not found in the passage at all, but then nor does the word ‘defiled’ or ‘dirty’.
There is no need for an ‘apology’ here. You do no except my explanation – so wait for your scientists to discover why.
Also bear in mind that the passage says the mother is only CEREMONIOUSLY unclean, during the days allocated she is relieved of any religious duties. Not that she is defiled.
As for an appeal to science being absurd, what is more absurd than ignoring the washing and purification laws that God set aside for dealing with bodily fluids, dead animals and bodies. Scientists did not ‘discover’ that they could prevent deaths in hospitals by washing their hands between patients and studying cadavers, until Louis Pasteur discovered microbiology and told you germs and bacteria could be transported by dirty hands and clothing, and this was not too long after a doctor called Dr Semmelweis was ridiculed for insisting that his medical team wash their hands to prevent the alarming numbers of women dying in childbirth from bacterial contamination. This was only discovered 100 years ago.
So as a woman I know who I’d rather place my bets with!
By: Rachael on October 13, 2011
at 5:21 pm
My comments that you (and other apologists) made yourself a god is that you made up (or repeated a made up) explanation that is nowhere in the bible. Your reply failed to show the source of your explanation. Thus, the word of god is the bible plus your words.
So let’s review: you have not provided any evidence to show why women who give birth to girls need twice as much time to recover as women who gave birth to boys. You reference Semmelweis, who actually HAD EVIDENCE to support his claims. He studied a nursing ward for poor women with two clinics, one clinic run by medical students and the other run by midwives. After getting the medical students to wash their hands in water with chlorine after working with cadevars, the death rates of babies in their clinic dropped. The bottom line is he had evidence. You have none. Your speculation is worthless.
Women and children all over the world today benefit from the advances of science. The death rates of mothers and newborn babies when following modern medical practices are much lower than when only following the nonsense in the bible.
If you truly believe remaining “unclean” (exact word used in the bible to describe these women – not respect) for 7 days after boys and 14 days after girls and that waiting for purification 33 days after girls and 66 days after boys is superior to modern medical practices, then do some research or experiments and get some data. Let me know when your data is published.
The bible says fruit-bearing trees existed before the sun, it says bats are birds, and it makes many other obviously scientific errors. I think Neil Degrasse Tyson describes the use of the bible to obtain scientific knowledge accurately.
Neil Degrasse Tyson, The Sky Is Not the Limit, p. 188
By: edhensley on October 13, 2011
at 7:01 pm
ed arent most poetry ambiguous,and the interpretion of it left to the reader,who would have knowledge of the poet and pick sense on what he/she may have written based on who that poet was.
arent there persons who clarify those ambiguous poems,such as spark notes,since it would not make sense for the poet to have to explain every single prose or certain elements in the poem ,but the reader who is being trained in arts literature
same way there are persons who study the bible for persons to understands God’s words ,and based on who He is ,come up with interpretions on what has been written
if you have everything easy for you,what would you learn then?and wouldnt it make sense to trace back to their time,esp since culture etc were way different then?
By: Nes on September 19, 2013
at 12:29 am
Which people correctly interpret the bible for you: Catholic priests, protestant ministers, unitarian ministers, scientists, Mormon leaders?
By: edhensley on September 22, 2013
at 4:51 pm
Does that mean nobody died of cholera, AIDS or any of the number of communicable diseases until science could provide the EVIDENCE that these diseases existed? That no one ever died of cancer until a scientist came along and provided visual evidence of tumorous growths through the lens of his microscope?
It’s surprising how the human race has managed to survive for so long without the aid of scientific discovery.
And do not scientist come up with a theory first and then work towards finding evidence to prove that the theory could be a truth?
I have no need to provide data, God has given us science to discover through our own investigations The Truth revealed in His Laws which He provided for us to achieve a fulfilling and healthy life.
A good Rabboni (teacher) preacher or any person blessed by the spirit of Truth has the ability to help others less knowledgeable to understand The Word of God. So yes because God’s Temple resides in His children. His words become their words and vice versa, sometimes creating prophet-hood.
A believer’s ultimate aim is to become one with The Father as Yahsuah prayed in John 17:21;
“That they all shall be one, just as you, my Father, are in me, and I am in you, so that they also shall be one in us”
Also remember that night and day were operating fully before the sun may have burned brightly through a cloudless sky on the fourth day. The earth’s atmosphere may have been humid but the heat of the sun would have been suffice to provide vegetation such as ‘exotic’ fruits and vegetation that may no longer exist.
Like I said, you have rejected my explanation, which is how things should be, because without the Spirit of Truth alight within you, your heart will be hardened and you cannot ‘see’.
It is good to be a seeker of Truth.
Peace be with you Ed.
By: Rachael on October 14, 2011
at 2:54 pm
No. I never said anything like that. I simply said that the scientists YOU listed in your example, Semmelweiss and Pasteur, had evidence prior to making claims of cause and effect.
No. Most of the time scientists have data before proposing a theory. They then try to perform experiments of find new evidence that confirms or falsifies the theory. Semmelweis had evidence with hard numbers to back it up before he concluded and published that some “cadaverous material” transmitted from medical students to newborns was killing the babies. Pasteur also had much data to work with, and the research of other scientists who had also proposed germ theory. Watson and Crick determined the sctructure of DNA in 1952 using the x-ray diffraction images and models of Rosalind Franklin and Maurice Wilkins, Erwin Chargaff’s discovery that bases of DNA had a 1 to 1 ratio, Linus Paulings discovery of proteins with an alpha helix shape, and many other such discoveries dating back to Friedric Miescher’s discovery of nucleic acid’s in 1869. The patterns described here have happened in almost all scientific discoveries. Data comes before the theory.
I noted earlier that the bible claims that fruit trees existed before their was a sun and that bats are birds. Science has revealed that the bible is wrong in these and a multitude of other matters. You ignored these errors, simply making assertions such as the one above, showing your blind devotion to dogma.
First of all, that which can be asserted with no evidence can be dismissed with no evidence. Positive assertions require positive evidence.
Secondly, your statement is a contradiction. You “do not need to provide data” and yet your god gave us science to discover things through “our own investigations”. You can not have investigations without data.
Lastly, god did not give us science. It developed through centuries of work first from philosophers, and then from natural philosophers, and finally to methods used by Galileo, Newton and modern scientists. You do not find the scientific method in the bible.
As a seeker of the truth, I hope you have been enlightened.
By: edhensley on October 16, 2011
at 12:52 am
The only reason man has science is because of the original sin.Man ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.In stead of the tree of life. We were free to chose of any tree but the tree of knowledge.satan said you would You will become just like god knowing everything.The wisdom of men is foolishness to Him howbeit He chose the simpleness of preaching to save the lost.
By: Kevin Shaffer on November 6, 2015
at 3:16 pm
Mankind has science due to the work of many men and women, including many ancient and modern natural philosophers. Watch both the Carl Sagan Cosmos and the Neil DeGrasse Tyson Cosmos series for more information. The following quotes are from Tyson.
Great scientific minds, from Claudius Ptolemy of the second century to Isaac Newton of the seventeenth, invested their formidable intellects in attempts to deduce the nature of the universe from the statements and philosophies contained in religious writings…. Had any of these efforts worked, science and religion today might be one and the same. But they are not.
The Sky Is Not the Limit, p. 183
I simply go with what works. And what works is the healthy skepticism embodied in the scientific method. Believe me, if the Bible had ever been shown to be a rich source of scientific answers and enlightenment, we would be mining it daily for cosmic discovery.
The Sky Is Not the Limit, p. 188
By: edhensley on November 7, 2015
at 7:46 pm
@Rachael,
Take a look at your very name which includes homage to El a pagan god. Why are the Jews addressing YHWH using a title taken from the name of a pagan God called El. The same is also true of “Amen” the magic words which are said after closing a prayer. Why do Jews and Christians use a chant that is the name of an Egyptian God. Amen/Amun are the same the problem is we do not know the exact way to say his name because the Egyptians did not write vowels which repeats the problem we have with correctly saying Yahweh’s name. Notice Tutankhamun and another pharoahs use the name of their god to pay homage.
By: mP on December 1, 2011
at 4:52 am
Deborah was a ruler or a judge in the old testament. You can find more about it here in Judges 4-5. Even today we do not have a woman president yet, look how the media treats Hilary Clinton, asking her what brand of clothing she is wearing.
The male children need to be circumcised after 8 days, the reason for this is that the coagulation factor or vitamin k is at the highest point 8 days after birth and drops off considerably after 8 days. A woman would need a rabbi to do the circumcision, so I am guessing that may be why there is a period of ceremonial uncleanness for 7 days for males. So that on the 8th day the woman could take the baby to the rabbi or to the temple. There may be a longer time of 14 days where there are no temple obligations because there is no need to be circumcised.
By: Ash on September 14, 2012
at 2:43 am
A doctor would be better for circumcising than a rabbi. And there is no logical reason for a woman to have to go to a temple for circumcision, since it could be done in a home or medical center.
The bible was used to keep women from voting in the USA and for other inequaties. Atheist Elizabeth Cady Stanton was the founder of the women’s suffrage movement, and all Christian women owe their right to vote to her. An atheist woman is currently the president of Australia.
By: edhensley on September 14, 2012
at 2:36 pm
It seems edhensley will go to whatever extent to make his claims seem “reasonable”. Yes the bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. If you continue reading it with such a RIGID mind you won’t understand a thing. Trust me. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you when u read God’s word. That’s the only away, otherwise NOBODY here is able to convince you. am out of here. The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING OF WISDOM….Try to think what that means. ..ask for His wisdom, Cheers!
By: ana on September 28, 2012
at 8:32 am
I did this as a teenager when I did not understnad the bible or when I found it to be morally repulsive, which was often. It did not work, even when I belived in a Holy Spirit. I tried it again just now (even though I no longer believe in a Holy Spirit), and this passage is still morally repulsive. No matter how many times I ask the Holy Spirit to justify this (and other) passages, it never happens.
Another problem is that you are asking me to believe a conclusion about about the bible first, then blindly accept its contents. If a Muslim asked you to accept the Koran as true and pray to Allah for proper interpretation, you would be the first to point out the faults of the Koran as evidence that it is not inspired by a perfect god. You must examine the claims of the Koran, the Bible and any other book before you accept the claims as truth. The correctness of the claims should dictate the acceptance of the book, not the other way around as you insist for the Bible but not for any other book.
I pity you and all others whose lives are based on a foundation of fear.
By: edhensley on September 28, 2012
at 9:43 pm
@edhensley……LOL Not that kind of fear! LOL. Told u no one is able to teach u.. u r not open minded that’s why u r unteachable. If a muslim came to teach me abt Quran a good student is always willing to learn BUT use your God given wisdom to discern what is true. You know what, I wud never force anyone to believe anything,God gave us a free will. That’s why we say God is love. You know why? He gave u a free will! True love does not force u into reciprocating His love coz His love is unconditional unlike human’s imperfect love.LOL I don’t need pity.haha.am okay, I know my identity is in Christ n God’s love for me
By: ana on September 29, 2012
at 6:23 am
Your reply shows that you blindly accept your holy book but apply reason to other holy books. When you apply reason to the ridiculous passages in the bible, you will then know that it is merely a book written by men.
By: edhensley on November 4, 2012
at 12:27 pm
I don’t know why this is written the way it is. And you obviously don’t want anyone to try to offer any educated guesses, but I do know that there are many scriptures that show God honors women. So I don’t see it as an example of God thinking I’m unworthy. So it must be something else.
I noticed in the comments below there was a lot of back and forth. I’m not trying to tell you to change your view of this scripture, but I would like to suggest that there are probably many things we don’t know, and as you said, there isn’t a lot more written here to explain why. You keep, rightly, telling people that their ideas aren’t reflected in the scriptures, but neither is yours. The scripture says “ceremonially unclean” and you use the word defiled. That’s your interpretation of the scripture, but it’s not actually written there.
I had a girl, and I decided that I would take advantage of this scripture, and stay home from church services. It’s not something my Church follows, but it seemed like a good idea to me. I was still bleeding a bit for weeks, had a vaginal tear and some painful hemorrhoids (and I had a non invasive, home birth, so I had far less issues than others). If I did too much activity, I would bleed more. I’ve never had a boy so I don’t know if it’s different — and I’m pretty sure no scientist has ever tried to look into it, that I know of. But, I found it freeing to not have to worry about my new baby being around a lot of people or having to prepare myself or my daughter to venture out to church services. Was that the intention? Why would a girl be different? It doesn’t say and I don’t know. But I do know that I found it helpful and loved my time at home with my baby and no obligations to do anything…
Which Ieads me to something else, I had the advantage of choosing to stay home. I think the maternity laws here in the US show no logic. Why would the government not give more time for moms to be able to stay with their babies? Since I’m under these laws today, and have yet to see many laws in my country that show respect for women, I find it a bit sad that people would spend time complaining about their views on women in the Bible and not put their efforts into something useful, like working to change the terrible laws that affect women on a daily basis all around the world today?
Just some thoughts. Thank you for writing the opportunity to comment.
By: Kelly on December 22, 2013
at 3:44 am
*and (the opportunity to comment) 🙂
By: Kelly on December 22, 2013
at 3:47 am
Adam’s argument is faulty for the simple fact that if a family already had a son and this was the second child, for example that happened to be a girl, why would the husband want to impregnate his wife so quickly? What if the man had 5 sons already? I don’t believe the assumption that the law was designed to protect the woman and daughter. The law is peculiar, doesn’t make sense and seems to oppress women. It is like women were being punished for having a daughter just like Sarah felt worthless for not having children until she was in her 80s or 90s. Women not only had to have children but they had to have as many male children as possible because women were considered property or a liability and a male child was an asset. A woman’s testimony, for example was seldom heard in courts during that time because her testimony was in the same category as a lunatic’s. Additionally, If a man raped a virgin, he would not only have to pay the father 30 or 50 shekels of silver (never mind gold) but she would have to marry him. Interesting. Some say this protects the woman also but does it really? Would you want to be forced to marry someone that sexually assaulted you? Of course, the father had to be compensated because his property was damaged too but the heck with the woman…..let the worthless woman marry the perverted bleep because the father has to unload his tainted goods!
Additionally, Adam mentioned that man made laws are full of peculiarities BUT the Bible is said to have been written through the inspiration of the Holy Spirt so if this is the case, why would God tell men that women were unclean twice as long for having a daughter? I don’t believe God or His laws are peculiar. Men’s laws are peculiar and this whole law sounds like it came from a man. Christians always say that if you read the Bible, you will understand yet it seems that the more I read, the more confused I become. Later, I’m accused of having an evil spirt guiding me. It sincerely ticks me off. I’m a Christian but I have questions about the Bible because Christians don’t seem to have the answers but they will accuse me of being led by an evil spirit simply because I have questions. No one on this blog has said that but I’m just making a point.
@AJ…..I can’t accept your argument about the Caananite tribes wanting to sacrifice their baby daughters to “the gods” because these laws were supposed to have been written through the inspiration of the Holy Spirt for a group of people that wanted to honor God’s laws. If these people were true followers of God’s laws, why would they deviate to a pagan law and sacrifice their daughters to “other gods”?
@ Ron…why were women worth less than men? Good question.
@ Anna…..why was it ok for men to have more than one wife yet a woman couldn’t have more than one husband? That whole issue sounds like it came from a man and not from God.
@ Ed….there are two creations stories in the book of Genesis…..One gives the example that you pointed out that is also illustrated in Jubilees but the other one says that man and woman were created (it makes no mention of the rib story) so I wonder what really happened. Furthermore, why would God make the distinction that a woman was unclean twice as long for having a daughter simply because women came second? Doesn’t the book of Genesis also say that God created man and woman equally? If that is the case, why is there a distinction with this uncleanliness ritual if we are all equal?
@ Futurebug…..if women weren’t around to bear children, no one on earth at the time would cease to exist so your argument is weak. Maybe men are better warriors but no one would cease to exist if women didn’t bear children.
@ Rachel….your comments are embarrassing to our gender. I’m sorry. They are weak, illogical and full of assumptions on your part.
@ Nes…….Do you really believe God wants all of us to be this confused? Even when we have biblical experts that interpret the Bible for us, they all don’t come to the same conclusions so your argument isn’t very acceptable.
@ Ash….you are guessing and it doesn’t explain why females were unclean twice as long as males. Good point about females being presidents, though.
@ Ana….your comments are an embarrassment to Christians, particularly ones like me because I have the same types of questions but am told that I only need to read the Bible with an open mind. If a book doesn’t make sense to you, what do you do about it? Do you continue reading it and not make any attempts to get the answers to your questions or do you find the answers to your questions? I personally want to find the answers and when people like you give me those responses, it ticks me off. I do fear the Lord so does that mean that I have to just accept some of these things that don’t make sense? Do you really believe that God said that women were unclean twice as long for having daughters and if so, why? I would like to know your answer.
@ Kelly…..your comments are biased. How do you know what my personal intentions are for viewing this blog or the personal intentions of anyone else? How do we define ceremonially unclean and why is there a distinction for male children as opposed to female children? This is the whole point of the article. I personally believe that a reason why women are so oppressed in our society is these religious ideologies infiltrated its way into our overall societal mindset. Therefore, do women get enough time to stay at home with their children after childbirth? Probably not. Christian men will then argue that women shouldn’t be working to begin with because that wasn’t God’s design. Interesting thought because if stayed at home during WWII, we may have lost the war! If women stayed at home when their husbands were out drinking all night and poured the money into a Scotch bottle, then how was the woman supposed to properly take care of the children and do her “wifely duties”? How many churches today are currently upholding NT Scriptures that states that orphans and widows should be supported? I personally know of a widow that is 64 years old and will most likely have to work until she is at least 70, maybe longer. She has medical issues and shouldn’t be working at all yet she is. Bear in mind that women still make 72 cents for every man’s dollar. I’m on this blog to understand these sexist Biblical laws so that I can uplift myself as a Christian and hopefully uplift other Christian women. When Christian women blindly accept everything in the Bible, including this distinction about women being unclean twice as long for having daughters as opposed to sons, then we become prisoner’s in our own minds. Do you really believe God made that distinction or man made that distinction?
By: Vicky on March 3, 2014
at 6:03 am
I appreciate your enthusiasm. However, try to keep your next comment shorter. Perhaps this one should have been divided. Do not worry about dividing it up now.
By: edhensley on March 4, 2014
at 8:49 pm
I apologize. Being succinct isn’t a skill I have mastered yet.
By: Vicky on March 5, 2014
at 2:40 am
Her answer was great. Take time to read it.
By: Tanya Hanson on September 7, 2018
at 10:47 pm
It’s quite simple…GOD is a man…JESUS is a man…THE HOLY SPIRIT is a man…THE BIBLE was written by men…Adam (man) was created first…Men are the leaders and head of the household. That’s how GOD intended things to be. Men should love their wives and protect them, and never hurt them… Women should love their husbands and respect the authority that GOD gave their husbands. Husbands should respect GOD’s authority over them.
By: Mike on May 24, 2014
at 12:26 am
[…] “There is no logic or reason behind either of these laws.” https://rarebible.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/women-defiled-by-childbirth-baby-girls-twice-as-dirty-as-b… […]
By: Why are women considered unclean after childbirth in Leviticus? | savannaclaudia on September 14, 2014
at 11:07 pm
Men are different from women and women are different from men. Most men love women, exactly because they are different; they look different, where created different, sometimes think different and have different levels of emotions, they sound different, feel different, etc.; they also dress different, smell different, behave different… and we love them for it! And vice-versa for most women towards men… Some of these differences you could blame on Disney; as cultures before us could have blamed them on others who emphasized sex differences in their times; and yet, most of us still love it. Other differences can be blamed on God, who created us male and female, with all these wonderful differences. It is one thing to put injustice right (women being paid less for the same job, etc.); it is another to want to make women equal to men in everything, as if everything that men have is worth more than what women have. Nowhere it says, that being ‘ceremonially unclean for more time’ is better or worse or that it is a punishment or blessing; what if it is just ‘different’. Why is it morally wrong for God to support a law that emphasizes the very fact that He created us male and female? Why would a symbolic explanation, that was known and obvious at the time (maybe like the example given from Jubilees), but only leaves us guessing today, not be acceptable as a celebration of life and the difference of the birth of a boy and a girl; a celebration, a simple reminder how wonderful it is, that God created us male and female?! Why do you forcefully interpret the difference being made as putting women down? Furthermore, the Bible does clearly teach there is a ‘functional’ difference between men and women (without one being better than the other) and that God instated that difference. We may not always like that; but who are we to tell the Creator of the Universe and All-knowing God, that He did it wrong; that He isn’t allowed to make some for one purpose and others for another purpose?
By: Randolph on October 4, 2014
at 8:05 pm
You comment is wrong on so many levels. First of all, there is no evidence of god creating anyone, but even if she did, she did not make as as male and female only. Although most people are either male or female, it is a scientific fact that numerous types in between people exist. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex and look up CAH, Progestin Induced Virilisation, Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, 5-ARD, PMDS, Anorchia, Gonadal Dysgenesis, Hypospadias, Turner Syndrome (XO), Triple X Syndrome, Klinefelter Syndrome, other categories of unusual chromosomal sex, and Mosaicism (having both XX and XY cells).
As I stated, there is no logic or reason behind any of these laws, and you have not provided any logic or reason, only claiming that we should not question god. If these laws were in the Koran, you would be condemning them. I am sure you condemn the authors of the Koran for equating the testimony of one man as equal to the testimony of two women (Koran 2:282). Yet you blindly look away and apologize for the ridiculous laws and misogyny that is in the bible.
I challenge you to read the bible as if it were the Koran. For every verse, ask if it is good or logical. When you truly do that (instead of closing your eyes and apologizing for evil and nonsense), you will realize how evil and illogical the bible is.
By: edhensley on October 5, 2014
at 9:49 pm
@ Randolph….please read the article below…..It illustrates how women were outcasted from society and their families if they were “ritually unclean”, especially for prolonged periods of time and through no fault of their own. It also illustrates how women were ostracized if they didn’t have children, especially sons! I sincerely don’t believe that an all powerful, all loving and all knowing God would allow women to suffer like this….Men made these rules, not God!
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/january/17.48.html
Also, have you ever heard of these prayers….”Blessed are you, Lord our God, Ruler of the Universe, who has not made me a woman”. The women would pray a different prayer that said….”Blessed are you, Lord our God, Ruler of the Universe, who has me me according to Your will”.
Did God make these prayers up? Of course not, men did. Why do you think men prayed these prayers? Would you want to be a woman back then? Would you want to be one now? Why do you think Jesus came down as a man? If He were to come down as a woman, He would be ceremonially unclean for two weeks out of the month (if He was lucky) and wouldn’t be able to enter the Temple BECAUSE He was a woman AND He was ceremonially unclean! Think about that! Bear in mind that when a woman had her period, she was unclean for the 7 days of her period and 7 days after her period. That is ridiculous just like this law about women being unclean twice as long for having daughters!
By: Vicky on October 5, 2014
at 10:11 pm
I would suggest reading the aforementioned article on your phone. I tried to access it on my computer and needed to subscribe to the site.
By: Vicky on October 5, 2014
at 10:21 pm
@ Vicky … As the moderator of this article has pointed out. We should try to comment on the text of the actual law. The article you refer to (the small part I could read; couldn’t get in with my mobile either) is a very emotional story and I have no doubt things like that have happened throughout history, not only in ancient Israel, but (according to many historical records) a lot worse in the “pagan” tribes that surrounded them and throughout the world. The disease we are all born with, called “sin”, can turn us into horrible persons; egoistic at best and for many it has turned them into real monsters. Nobody denies the horrors women have suffered throughout history (and up to today in some places). But nothing of that has anything to do with the actual law we are considering here. People have interpreted the Bible in such a way that they thought they had license to kill other Christians, because they interpreted the same Bible differently; that doesn’t actually mean that the Bible gives license or even suggests such horrible behavior. For a Jew to thank God he wasn’t born a woman, just shows his ignorance and lack of understanding of what the Bible actually teaches. You should separate what the Bible actually says, from what people have made it to mean. As others have pointed out in earlier comments; depending on the interpretation, this law could be used as a blessing as much as a curse. What is interesting, is how Jesus (‘indirect author’ of the Bible) shows the scribes and teachers of His time how utterly bad (and hypocrite) some of their interpretations were; revealing how their egoism had completely distorted the real meaning of the law (consider the example of the Sabbath: “Man wasn’t made for the Sabbath” (to endure it as a burden, with all kind of stupid rules); “but the Sabbath was made for man” (to be able to rest, relax and think about the real meaning of life and his God). When Jesus talks to a Samaritan woman alone and in public, He clearly shows how all these discriminating interpretations, have nothing to do with God’s intend. Don’t blame God for the egoistic interpretation of sinners. If you need examples of good interpretations, look at some of the homes of people who truly love God and are being sanctified though the Holy Spirit; how they treat their wives, mothers and daughters with the utmost respect, dignity and love; their interpretation of these laws is probably much more reliable, as they truly know the God who inspired them.
By: Randolph on October 8, 2014
at 1:24 pm
There is no disease called “sin” with which we are all born.
Unfortunately, the bible has many verses that directly promote the subjugation of women and violence against others. You just choose to ignore these or interpret them in a very non-literal way.
By: edhensley on October 8, 2014
at 1:42 pm
@ Randolph…The moderator, in his own comments stated that “This is just another example of bizarre laws in the bible. It also provides another example of how the Bible values women as much less worthy as men.” My point was to illustrate that if people continue to accept these OT ideologies as the literal Word of God, women will never be uplifted. But why should you care, especially if you are a man? Just tell us to keep quiet, dress modestly (yet it is usually men that rape and some men will rape nuns dressed in their habits or children/adolescents in Africa using outhouses at 2 am) and that we are the weaker vessel because that is what the NT states. I apologize for deviating off of the subject matter again.
You mentioned that it could be a “blessing” for the mother to be unclean twice as long for having a daughter. I’m assuming you are referring to others that commented that the experience for the mother was essentially “restful”. Really? Was it really a restful experience for the mother if she had other children that she couldn’t see and maybe one of those children was sick? Was it a restful experience if she missed her husband if he happened to be a decent man that actually treated her like a human being instead of a piece of property? Was it a blessing if she was isolated from practically everyone in a location that is seldom discussed anywhere (so we don’t know her true living conditions during her defilement) and she was fighting an infection, was hemorrhaging or had a fistula as the article pointed out and the only trained people that probably could help her (men because they were educated) wouldn’t because they honored a supposed law of God’s to not be near an unclean woman? Was it a blessing if she ended up dying alone because of her post labor complications? I’m sorry. I can’t accept that.
You mentioned the excerpt of Jesus talking to the Samaritan woman and the interpretations of the Sabbath (by the way, they are off the subject matter but I’m not complaining). These off the subject topics happen to be part of my point……Jesus didn’t regard the Bible literally because He broke the “rules” yet religious leaders today insist, especially because it is in the NT, that women are the weaker vessel, need to remain quiet, can’t be pastors, and must dress modestly. Where in the bible does it say that a man has to dress modestly? How many excerpts can you find where the Bible emphasizes a woman’s virginity but not a man’s? Why do religious leaders emphasize these sexist excerpts from the NT? History repeats itself. Look at the OT and how women were treated and look at today.
Lastly, I don’t blame God for these occurrences, I blame religious men who justify oppressing and suppressing women each time they open their Bibles. I love God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit, believe it or not. I just don’t know how to worship Them anymore because I have too many questions about the Bible such as this bizarre law about women being unclean twice as long for having daughters as opposed to sons.
By: Vicky on October 9, 2014
at 12:00 am
Isaiah 55:9
A little humility and faith when reading The Word of God goes a long way. You could take our culture’s lack of value for anything innately feminine and apply it to God’s Word, but know that His thoughts are higher than yours and yours are probably out of context and incorrect. As the mother of two beautiful girls, I am acutely aware of the value they have and the value they may potentially bring into the world. I also trust my God when He says He created them equal in value to any boy. Therefore, when something doesn’t seem right in my modern and LIMITED understanding of His Word, I acknowledge that it is my limitation not His and I do more research. I don’t have all the answers, but I trust Him and I see the value and potential in little girls. For this reason, I KNOW the authors’ interpretation of this scripture is ugly and wrong, and says more about the author than My God and His Word.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/510244/jewish/Ritual-purity-after-birth-of-males-and-females.htm
By: Sherm on October 22, 2014
at 3:27 pm
Did you ever consider that your personal morality may be superior to the immoral filth of the bible?
By: edhensley on October 26, 2014
at 5:40 pm
I’m not sure I completely understand your reply, but then I don’t have a very high opinion of the level of morality that any human (myself included) is capable of reaching all by their lonesome.
Did you follow the link I posted? The author of this blog had to make a lot of assumptions in order to draw such harsh conclusions.
The only immorality and filth I see in the Bible is the result of human behavior. (There’s a lot of immorality and filth that exists outside of the Bible too, I might add.) Unlike many, the authors of the books of the Bible don’t hide the flaws and limitations of the people in them. The faults of Biblical leaders are laid bare not hidden, smoothed over, or dismissed. Those faults are the results of the same limitations we all possess, and do nothing but point the reader to all of humanity’s need for Jesus Christ.
I have no intention of changing anyone’s mind or convincing anyone that I’m “right” (I didn’t write the Bible, after all .) I do, however, believe that anyone who would so vehemently spout such negative interpretations and opinions about scripture could benefit from a little humility and acknowledge that MAYBE, just maybe, there’s something he/she isn’t understanding. I’m not even saying he/she should strive to understand, just acknowledge that they may just not get it. It might go a long way toward reducing some of the irritation.
By: Sherm on October 26, 2014
at 10:24 pm
Would you be willing to kill your son if Jesus/Yahweh asked you to in the same manner that Abraham was willing to kill Isaac when Jesus/Yahweh asked him?
By: edhensley on October 27, 2014
at 11:52 am
@ Sherm…..Read Leviticus 27. It illustrates how women were worth less than men. I believe that contradicts your statement: “I also trust my God when He says He created them equal in value to any boy”.
As far as you to: “acknowledge that it is my limitation not His and I do more research” because of “your modern and limited understanding of His word” illustrates why some of us are on this site……to understand by questioning what is written and find rational explanations. The article you used is not a good illustration of diligent efforts on your part to find the answers.
The article stated the following: “You write the word “cleanliness,” when really it is “ritual purity.” A woman’s “impurity,” or “tumah” in Hebrew, during her menstruation is a built-in component of her natural monthly cycle. Her status of “impurity” demonstrates her descent from a peak level of holiness, when she had the ability to conceive a precious new life through her union with her husband”.
Leviticus 15:16-18 basically states that if a man has an emission of semen and/or when a woman lies with a man, all parties are “unclean” in both instances until evening. If God told Adam and Eve in Genesis 1:28 to “be fruitful and multiply”, why were people “unclean for doing what they were told to do? This contradicts your article’s response that states that a woman is basically “impure” if she has her period because she is not pregnant. The article essentially states that she is most pure during the time when she is able to conceive but she falls off the wagon again for having sex, doing what God told her to do and ends up in a state of defilement. That makes no sense and sounds utterly ridiculous!
More from your article: “The status of “tumah” is not meant to imply sinfulness, degradation or inferiority. On the contrary, it emphasizes, in particular, the great level of holiness inherent in woman’s G‑dly power to create and nurture a new life within her body, and the great holiness of a husband and wife’s union, in general. Since a woman possesses this lofty potential, she, also bears the possibility of its void; hence her status as tameh, ritually impure. Since she experienced “the touch of death,” so to speak, with the loss of potential life, as reflected by her menstruation, she enters this status of “impure.” This basically states that all of the burden is placed on the woman to become pregnant, carry full term and have a male because let’s face it, the final piece of your article below contradicts itself once again because if female children “inherently carry a higher degree of holiness”, why the heck couldn’t they enter the temple, become priests, own property, testify in a court or initiate a divorce; never mind demand that their future spouses prove their virginity and drink bitter waters if they were suspected of adultery? Furthermore, if women and men were told by God to have sex with each other and the woman was “blessed” to have conceived, why was she in a state of defilement for actually having a child and bleeding later as a result? The article states that menstruation is “the touch of death” because it represents no conception but when a woman actually gives birth and later bleeds, she is still defiled? That sounds ridiculous! Please re-read the next excerpt from your article to refresh your memory.
“After having given birth to a baby boy, a woman must wait a minimum of seven days before beginning her pure days; while after a baby girl is born, she must wait a minimum of fourteen days. Since the female child inherently carries a higher degree of holiness, due to her own biological, life creating capability, a greater void, or tumah, remains after her birth. Thus, the greater tumah after a baby girl’s birth reflects her greater capacity for holiness (due to her creative powers) and necessitates the longer wait to remove this ritual impurity”.
I suggest you find a better article to support this man man ideology because the one you used is not impressive in the very least. Thanks for sharing though!
By: Vicky on October 26, 2014
at 10:19 pm
First, Leviticus 27 refers to a VOW for an offering, not an offering. That’s important. This section of Leviticus is laying out the instructions for people who are unable to afford to give God offerings at the appointed time (he is merciful). This is not the monetary value of the person in God’s eyes, but the value of the future offering they will bring him. I am not sure if you are aware, but God doesn’t value our money at all. Humans do and that is why we give it, to serve other humans in His name. Our offerings aren’t for Him. They’re for us. When we give, our hearts become more like his.
The first 8 versus deal with a VOW of service. People would vow to serve God in the temple. The “worth” placed on these people’s service was not their worth to God, but the fair “market value” for servants in that culture. The price disparity does not reflect the worth of the person to God, but the worth of the person’s work to OTHER PEOPLE. Again, people are the issue. Not God.
The egos of many women in our culture (and men’s in defense of us) are way too fragile. The Christian faith isn’t about men or women. My faith isn’t about me. The Christian faith is about Jesus and Jesus LOVES us. I’m telling you, if it seems misogynistic it is either about human nature or it is misunderstood. God can not place a higher value on any man than he does me. I bear HALF of his image (and I wouldn’t trade the half I have for ANYTHING! The parts of him that I see in me are utterly amazing!)
You don’t have to believe me. I’m, again, just pointing out that maybe you’re missing something.
I don’t have a lot of time to do a whole word study, but my instincts tell me that the term “unclean” is much more offensive to people today than it was to Israelites at the time the Law was given. However, it’s clear, that over time it’s become more offensive/oppressive (again, people issue, not God issue). The Pharisees obviously struggled with it as did the early church, and if Jesus and Paul couldn’t make them understand, I don’t have much hope for my own abilities here. Clean vs Unclean had to do with a level of holiness. God really doesn’t explain why some things are clean or unclean. I could sit here all day and pontificate why I THINK they are, but ultimately I don’t know. What is clear is that the level of holiness fluctuated based on certain actions or experiences. Some of them were outside of people’s control, others were not, either way communion with God could always be restored. We don’t know God’s reasons for choosing the things he did. The Israelites didn’t have to know God’s reasons. Knowledge doesn’t beget obedience. Humility begets obedience. Ultimately, the idea that any person could attain ANY portion of holiness shows a great deal of generosity on God’s part. We are not holy at all! None of us, priests included. I could be wrong, but I sense a lot of negativity on this blog. People don’t like what they read. I believe they don’t like what they read because they don’t like how it makes them feel. However, God never intended for the Bible to make people feel good. Its purpose is to demonstrate how people can bring God the most glory. Before Christ, The Law was how that was done. The whole point of it was to show that no one can do it. That we need God. That was Christ’s message to the Pharisees, but they didn’t like how He made them feel…so they got angry.
As far as the article I linked, in my daily Bible study I came across Leviticus 12 and it didn’t make sense to me. So, I Googled it to find a few explanations. I found this blog. I found the other (among others). Two very different interpretations. Given the other author’s Jewish background and experience of the Torah, my knowledge of God’s nature, and my knowledge of the value of little girls; I determined that the other makes way more sense to me. I could be wrong, but I sensed disdain from the author of this blog. That’s never a good prerequisite for objectivity. Obviously, this blog makes more sense to you. So, no I was not super diligent, however, I made it a point to look at both positive and negative interpretations and use my experience and knowledge to draw my conclusions. I’m not sure what your methods are, but I’m perfectly content with my own and the conclusions I’ve drawn on this particular issue.
I’m not Jewish, so there’s a lot that I don’t fully understand in the article I linked. My reasons for posting it was not to refute anything said on this blog but to point out the wide range of explanations for such a passage of scripture. Like I said, that one made a lot more sense to me than this one. This one makes more sense to you. That’s a pretty big disparity. There’s a pretty good chance we’re both wrong. (Just as a side note, though, women were allowed in the temple. They could not be priests. As a woman, I have no problem with that. When I read that “the priesthood is for men” I don’t understand it as “women suck”. There are things meant for women and there are things meant for men. I don’t understand why our culture seems to have such a hard time with that concept.)
I think it’s worth reiterating that I have no goal other than to point out that there is much that a non-believer doesn’t understand about the Christian faith. There are good, intelligent, rational, kind people who believe it whole heartedly. It would be convenient to dismiss them all as crazy or ignorant, but we’re not. We just understand something, see something, that others don’t. Are there crappy Christians? Absolutely. However, there is nothing about Jesus Christ to disdain. There are disdainful actions among people, thoughts, and ideas. The ugliness in the Word of God is the result of human behavior, human error, human emotion, and the root of all of them: human PRIDE; and the desire of God to lay our sins bare.
By: Sherm on October 27, 2014
at 2:56 pm
@ Sherm…..Leviticus 27 specifically states that the Lord spoke to Moses and told him to the tell the people that a man from 20-60 years old has a VALUE of 50 shekels and a female has a VALUE of 30 shekels. The bottom line is women were worth less. If you trade in a Rolls Royce vs. a Chevy, chances are, the value, or fair market value of the Rolls is worth more than the Chevy. God, according to the Bible, allowed and condoned this because He spoke it to Moses. Again, this is according to the Bible if you take the Bible as the inerrant word of God. I don’t believe it is the inerrant word of God and I question if God actually spoke this to Moses. I still stand by my original statement.
“The egos of women and men in this country are too fragile” simply because we ask God about things that pertain to us on an individual basis? If Christian churches state that we are to have a personal relationship with Jesus, how can we do that if our ego’s are swept under the rug? If I could ask God right now and know He would answer me, I would want to know why women were worth less than men (in a vow) when Moses spoke to the people what was told to him by God. Why were women unclean twice as long for having a daughter as opposed to a son (a question you never answered, Sherm) I want to know why men only had to toil the land as punishment for eating the forbidden fruit yet women to this day have PMS, menstrual related difficulties (including vomiting, weight gain,debilitating cramps, constipation, diarrhea, hormonal changes, etc.), pregnancy related difficulties (including deciding whether or not to abort your child if you were raped, the victim of incest, knew your child would be profoundly retarded, were addicted to crack because you were forced into prostitution at age 12, fistulas, hemorrhaging, gestational diabetes, etc.), menopause and post menopause related issues. Why were women captives forced to marry their captors in the OT? In my mind, it is rape. Why were women considered property that was purchased through a dowry, could not testify in courts, had to prove their virginity, etc. Why can’t women today be pastors? (You, Sherm, say it is because we are different but that contradicts the statement that we are all created equally.) Why are we the weaker vessel? Your argument isn’t very impressive. I’m sorry. I can’t buy that nonsense anymore.
The whole point of this OT nonsense was to show that none of us can uphold the Law? What makes you think we can uphold the Laws set forth in the NT? Is your church providing assistance to the widows and orphans? Does your church insist that women need to wear long dresses, have long hair, shut their mouths, go into the kitchen and bake pies? If so, how many of the women in your church uphold those Laws? How many women in your church work because they have to as opposed to remaining at home and being the dutiful wife? How many men today can support a family household on their own? If God is not the author of confusion, why can’t you, I or Ed Hensley answer some of these questions? Shouldn’t they be in the Bible?
You said humility begets obedience….interesting…..is this why women in the OT times allowed their husbands to have more than one wife, allowed their husbands to beat them up or divorce them if they burnt dinner? Why do women today endure abuse and violence? I wonder where that came from? Why are rape victims still blamed for being raped? How many women rape men besides Lot’s nameless daughter (those shameless harlots)?
If you sensed disdain from the author of this blog, what are you going to do about it? If your purpose as a Christian is to convert people, how are you going to do that? Some of us need more information. I can’t accept that I’m the weaker vessel anymore or that because I’m different because I’m a woman (even though men and women were created equally), I can’t be a pastor.
You are correct in saying some of us (myself included) don’t like what we read in the Bible. I don’t like the fact that I was property 2000 years ago, was purchased for marriage, had to prove my virginity, was worth less than a man, was unclean twice as long for having a daughter as opposed to a son, was unclean for having my period, could not enter “certain parts” of temple because of my gender and menstrual issues, etc.. So, according to your logic, if I don’t like the fact that my husband beats the living daylights out of me, I MUST remain married to him because divorce is not permissible on those grounds because Jesus said so in the NT? If I remain married to him and he disables or kills me, it will be for God’s glory? That is Bu##@!*T!
By: Vicky on October 28, 2014
at 1:31 am
I don’t even know where to start. I want to address every issue that you threw at me, but I don’t think it would be effective if I did. I don’t get the sense that you’re interested in finding any truth in my perspective. I believe you’re interested in being right. The difference between the way you’re approaching these topics and the way I am is this: You disdain the Word of God. I love it and am devoted to my God. Sometimes love and devotion clouds judgement; however, anger and hate ALWAYS cloud judgement. You’re obviously angry. In my experience (I can only speak for myself), anger comes from frustration and frustration from unmet expectations. You clearly have an expectation of how women should be treated vs. men that isn’t being met in the Bible. Why? Why do women deserve to be treated more fairly? (I’m not saying they do or don’t, I’m just asking why this bias in favor of women? I personally am willing to take EVERY PMS and labor pain that comes with being a woman in return for the ability to bring forth life and the bond that I have with my kids. My husband loves them, but he can’t begin to understand my relationship with them. Fairness is subjective. I wouldn’t trade penalty with my husband.) I get the sense that you want God to swoop down and crush the men who have caused oppression. The thing is, He will. The Bible is clear about that. However, the end of this world isn’t the end of eternity. The oppressed will have their eternity, but if the oppressors don’t change they will have condemnation. God loves the oppressor as much as the oppressed. The purpose of this Earth (since people, male and female, decided to jack it up in the beginning) is time. Time for as many people to change as possible. God is patient and he has his heart set on eternity.
I have been raised in the Christian faith. I’ve NEVER been made to feel like less than my brothers, either in value or ability. Not at church, not in the home I grew up in, not in my marriage. If you have, I’m sorry for that. The PEOPLE who made you feel that way were wrong. The Bible declares that we are equal in value to men, not ability. Men can’t bring forth life. Women (generally) can’t lift as much. Do you really think that disparity in ability begets a disparity in value? If it did would not the woman’s ability be of more value? However, throughout history, woman’s value has, culturally, been less than men’s. That sounds like the result of physically stronger, arrogant, prideful, emasculated men’s actions to me. It’s ridiculous to think that men and women are the same. We’re so clearly not. But the things that make us different make us valuable…equally. My husband has been in Afghanistan for 9 months. I have had to do everything that both of our roles demand. My back hurts. I’m 90lbs. I was not MADE to do HIS job and he’ll be the first to tell you that he can’t do what I do. When we work together, though, what we both bring to the table creates a peaceful happy place to be. Could I lead our home, could I lead our church effectively? Absolutely I could. I don’t doubt my ability for a second. My husband would tell you that I’d do a better job than him. However, it doesn’t mean I SHOULD. Regardless of who leads our family, my husband will answer to God for the state of our family when he stands before Him. Why? Because God said it’s his job. Our culture seems to think that leading is more valuable than serving. Men are called to lead and women to serve and therefore God views men as more valuable. This so not Biblical. Jesus himself declared that to be the greatest you must become a servant. There is little that God values more than a servant. I don’t serve my husband because I HAVE to, I serve my husband because I love him. My marriage isn’t about me. My husband’s marriage his about me. And it’s a good thing. He thinks so much more highly of me and my abilities than I do. He is responsible for the outcome of our family and he, therefore, has final say in what we do as a family (IF he ever needs it). The irony is that he esteems me, and values my intellect, abilities, and heart so much that he has NEVER made a decision (even at work) without running it by me first. Men were given the ability to oppress because of their physical strength over women. Not all men do.
All the ugliness you have pointed out just continues to declare the problem with people. People are broken. The patriarchs of the Bible made terrible decisions and they often paid for them DEARLY. Just because the Bible talks about it, or God let it happen doesn’t mean that He liked it or condoned it. He allowed it. He allows men to do terrible things, and he allows women to do terrible things (John the Baptist was beheaded at the behest of a woman). Though it’s convenient to think that a loving God wouldn’t let us make our own bad decisions, it isn’t reality. As a parent, one of the most important things is to let your kids make their decisions and let them reap the consequences. We can tell them what is right (God does that), we can tell them what we don’t want them to do (He does that.) We can explain what will happen if they disobey (He also does that.) But ultimately we have to let them choose their actions. The Christian faith teaches that the relationship between husband and wife is symbolic of Christ and the Church. It demonstrates that the relationship between parent and child is symbolic of God and humanity. God is Love and love is, by definition, a choice. Humans have had, since the very beginning, a choice to make. God’s ways, or my own. We continuously choose our own, and the world around us is the result. The idea behind Christianity is to set aside “the self” for the sake of serving God HIS way. I tell my daughters all the time, “The best way to show me you love me, is to obey me.” I don’t abuse and force that love and obedience. I desire it because what I request of them comes from a place of love and selflessness.
There is such a danger in the tendency of non-believers to point the finger at religion (any religion or any part of a religion) as being “the problem”. The danger is that it allows them to believe they aren’t a part of the problem because they aren’t religious or don’t believe. No religion or belief system is the problem with this world, people and their actions are the problem. The oppression of women is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the problems with this world. We all contribute in some way to the ugliness around us. You don’t control anyone but yourself. You may not be able to end the oppression but feeding your anger over it by taking the absolute worst possible interpretation of what you read in The Bible and declaring it openly without also declaring your biases and limits to understanding doesn’t help. Your interpretation of the Bible is flavored by your experience, beliefs, opinions, and unmet expectations for the actions of God. The result is ugly. Declaring it is ugly. If you are devoted to what you believe (or don’t believe) then speak out of love and devotion for your beliefs, not your disdain, anger, and frustration for what others believe. Your frustration will tarnish your words and render them void to anyone who doesn’t share your contempt. It’s circular.
If you truly want to understand the scriptures that you find problematic, then lay down your frustration and biases and find a good church. One full of people who’s action line up with their Gospel. The differences between a Spirit filled church and a human filled church are very apparent. I’ve visited churches that made my skin crawl. The key isn’t to trust your feelings, the key is to KNOW the Gospel. Jesus said, “you will know a tree by its fruit.” Paul declares the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithful, gentleness, and self control). If that fruit isn’t there (in a person, an action, or a church) then the Spirit isn’t there. Find a church led by the Spirit and ask the pastor about these scriptures and really try to understand instead of argue. I highly suggest Calvary Chapel. It is part of their doctrine to preach verse by verse, chapter by chapter so as not to skip over difficult passages. I’m not saying start going to church, I’m saying look to believers to answer your questions about what they believe and why. Continuing to turn to people who share your bad opinions only fuels disdain. Of course, it might be that you don’t want their answers. If that’s the case, then it would be fruitful to acknowledge that insight and answers are what you want; anger is.
I also recommend reading “Captivating” by Stasie Eldredge. It address the VERY issue that you bring up. Women are valuable, not because they are the same as men, but because they are women. There is great power for good in a truly empowered woman. Therefore, it serves a purpose for evil to oppress them.
I really do wish you the best. It saddens me that some find such ugliness in the heart of God, when His goodness and mercy is so overwhelmingly apparent to me. I hope you haven’t read any undue negativity in my postings. My heart is only to extol the greatness of my God. However, I don’t know that I have the ability to do that anymore effectively than I already have, and out of a desire to keep from being redundant or rambling I am going to bow out of the conversation. I’ve said my peace. I have no desire to attempt to convert anyone or change anyones mind. The ability to do that goes far beyond my own. I wanted to share a different perspective, and I’ve done that. Keep reading The Word, even if it’s to criticize it. It’s better than not reading it at all.
“As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:10-11
By: Sherm on October 28, 2014
at 3:53 pm
Sherm, it is pretty cowardly of you to write 1848 words and declare that you have “said my peace” when you have refused to answer one simple question from me.
Would you be willing to kill your son if Jesus/Yahweh asked you to in the same manner that Abraham was willing to kill Isaac when Jesus/Yahweh asked him?
By: edhensley on October 29, 2014
at 8:28 pm
@ Sherm….You stated that you don’t think I’m interested “in finding the truth from your perspective”? You contradict yourself. Your earlier blog entry stated “there’s a pretty good chance we are both wrong”. Furthermore, how do you know that the “truth” can be found in your perspective? You never responded to my comments in how I believed your article contradicted itself.
You mentioned “the difference between the way you’re approaching these topics and the way I am is this: You disdain the Word of God. I love it and am devoted to my God”. That is very interesting that you BELIEVE and LOVE that God said that women are worth LESS than men, that women, if they are captives, should be forced to marry their captors, that women can’t enter the innermost parts of the temple, women are unclean twice as long for having a daughter as opposed to a son, women can’t be pastors, women can’t wear pants because they have to dress modestly, women must have long hair, women can only have one husband but men could have countless numbers, etc. I personally refuse to believe that God said any of that and quite frankly, I’m tired of being brainwashed to believe those things. Being a devout Christian for so many years led to self abuse on my part. One brief example is I forced myself to remain married to someone that cheated on me repeatedly in a day and age of HIV/AIDS. Some Christian leaders have said to me that it is a sin to get divorced and a double sin to divorce and remarry. I finally learned that God will be the judge, not man or the Biblical excerpts that were tainted by man. Therefore, do I disdain the word of God? I can’t honestly say that I do because I don’t believe God said those things. It would contradict a basic premise in the Christian faith that dictates that God loves us all equally and those aforementioned examples that I used do not demonstrate equality.
You also stated: “Sometimes love and devotion clouds judgement; however, anger and hate ALWAYS cloud judgement”. So, when God supposedly said that He hates homosexuals, divorce and those that love violence, was His judgement clouded? Your arguments, so far are weak and embarrassing to women!
Another interesting comment you made is “I get the sense that you want God to swoop down and crush the men who have caused oppression. The thing is, He will. The Bible is clear about that”. Your sense is wrong. I would like to see men and women (especially Christians) admit that women are oppressed and suppressed to this day because of OT nonsense that infiltrated it’s way into the NT that is currently being practiced today by churches and society (i.e., women can’t be pastor’s, women need to be modest in their dress yet no restrictions are required for men in the Bible, women are still blamed for being raped because, for example, they may have had a top that wasn’t “modest” according to some yet no blame is placed on the man for not controlling the pent up animal behind his zipper, and the fact that women are still physically and mentally abused by their husbands/boyfriends, fathers, pastors, and fellow church members for basically being brainwashed to believe that “we need to be quiet and submissive, we are the weaker vessel, and men should rule over us”).
“All the ugliness you have pointed out just continues to declare the problem with people”. I actually agree with you on this one but where do you think people got their ideas? Many of these ideas are in the Biible.
I can’t accept your argument that God allows all of these injustices to happen because He gave us free will. Tell me how free someone’s will truly is if they are born with mental retardation or spina bifida? The next argument may be that we are all born with original sin so we all have our crosses to bear. If someone is born with conditions such as these, how are we all equal? Some may say it is a generational curse but that contradicts the mission of Jesus. Even Christian churches can’t come to agreement with these types of arguments so I have no choice but to believe there is something more.
You also said: “You may not be able to end the oppression but feeding your anger over it by taking the absolute worst possible interpretation of what you read in The Bible and declaring it openly without also declaring your biases and limits to understanding doesn’t help. Your interpretation of the Bible is flavored by your experience, beliefs, opinions, and unmet expectations for the actions of God. The result is ugly”. Again, you contradict yourself because, according to your words “there’s a pretty good chance we are both wrong”. How do you really know God said to Moses that women were unclean twice as long for having daughters as opposed to sons? Again, the article you used led to further questions that you did not address which ultimately brings me back to square one. Bottom line, maybe your “result is ugly” but you are in denial.
You then said I should “Speak out of love and devotion for your beliefs” instead of my disdain but this is half of my problem. MANY CHRISTIAN CHURCHES WON’T LET ME BECAUSE I’M A WOMAN AND I MUST BE QUIET, SUBMISSIVE AND CAN’T PREACH!
You then offered the most uplifting and inspirational words of wit for me suggesting that I should find a “good church”! As I’m shaking my head while reflecting on the countless number of churches I attended, I have to ask you what you consider a “good church”? Are churches considered good if they continue to promote this oppression and suppression of women while simultaneously allowing men to believe that they rule the house, their woman and can take control of both regardless of what measure is used? Again, why do you think abuse of women and rape are so prevalent? How often do you see a woman beating up a man or a woman raping a man? You never answered that question either. You really didn’t answer any of my questions but I don’t expect my fellow Christians to.
You are correct is mentioning that you “know a tree by it’s fruit”. You haven’t answered any of my questions, basically shamed me for having disdain, and told me I need to “find a good church” in which the Gospel is preached. Trust me, I have tried for over 20 years and it is sad to say that the majority of Christians are phony. I don’t even know how to identify myself anymore because there is an unfortunate negative connotation with being a Christian due to such a high degree of hypocrisy. Why don’t churches provide for the orphans and widows? Why are churches today focused on having these massive and ornate worship halls when people in the neighborhood are starving. Why do churches promote “missions works” in foreign countries when people down the street are homeless? The overall meaning of the GOSPEL is to “Love God and each other”. How are we truly showing love to God by building this enormous edifice (when we both know God is not impressed with that) and ensuring the pastor lives in a better neighborhood than most of us when some of us are working two or three jobs just to pay our car note so we can get to work and find a way to pay our 10 percent in tithes?
Thank you for suggesting Calvary Chapel. If people like you go to that church (people that accept the bible as the inerrant word of God), then that is a warning from God to me to find another church!
By: Vicky on October 30, 2014
at 3:29 am
You did not address the previous commenter’s questions…which I share…about the declaration of women’s general “Uncleanness” in general, and in particular, twice as long when birthing a girl.
By: Renee Cush on May 11, 2016
at 8:54 am
You may appreciate this explanation by a Jewish woman 🙂
This is an honor to women, not an insult. 🙂
http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/510244/jewish/Ritual-purity-after-birth-of-males-and-females.htm
By: Aimee on January 4, 2015
at 4:42 am
Singer Shelley Segal and numerous other formerly Jewish women and atheist-Jewish women disagree with you.
By: edhensley on January 4, 2015
at 8:54 pm
If women possessed such inherent holiness due to their ability to bring children into the world, then why weren’t women allowed to enter the innermost parts of the temple, read the Torah, were purchased for marriage and viewed as property, etc.. Furthermore, if women were considered impure because they had their periods and didn’t bring forth another life, where does that leave the man? Last I knew, it takes both a man and a woman to have a child so why should only the woman be punished (by being ceremonially impure) if she has her period? Why would an unmarried woman that was the property of her father be ceremonially impure if she didn’t have a child? She would be stoned to death if she had pre-marital sex (and conceived) so either way, women lose. Do you really think God wanted unborn children to die by being stoned to death with their unwed mothers?
You will not be able to answer these questions because people want to justify a sexist ideology in the OT that mandated that women were unclean twice as long for having daughters as opposed to sons. I wasn’t around back then to know for sure but it seems to me that women were punished for having daughters instead of sons so that is why they were ceremonially unclean twice as long. Please refer to my comments to Sherm for further elaboration.
By: Vicky on January 5, 2015
at 2:53 am
Hi Vicky,
Wow! You really spoke what for YEARS I’ve been struggling with. I agree with you wholeheartedly! This should be spoken and taught from the pulpit but many are afraid to. I find that hiding making up excuses for these illogical laws/statues of God only serve the purpose of creating more atheists and more people to turn away from God instead of going to Him. And it doesn’t help that some in the Body of Christ constantly hammer the same excuse over and over and refuse to answer these question, the reason they don’t is probably because it means agreeing that ya, these laws and statues are BAD. This is just my opinion but I find that it is rather those who do actually study and read the scriptures are the ones that come across these illogical laws and see the none-sense of it all. Reading Ezekiel 20:23-26 does say God did purposely make laws that were not good, and i think many of those Christians who are arguing with you earlier chose not to accept that, are afraid to admit it or are blind to that verse. In a way that verse is showing me that even God can see they weren’t good laws, not good statues which further validates what you have said in your posts and what i have always believed, now for the rest of the body of Christ needs to get on board and stop “excusing God” or being fearful of thinking God couldn’t make bad laws and stop making up excuses for difficult verses for Leviticus and Deuteronomy (which they are afraid to admit are wrong) and instead call it what God calls it – laws and statues that were not good! Here’s the scripture for those of you who want to read what Ezekiel 20:23-26 says: 23 Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the wilderness that I would disperse them among the nations and scatter them through the countries, 24 because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes lusted after their parents’ idols. 25 So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not live; 26 I defiled them through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.’
By: Donna on March 25, 2017
at 5:59 pm
It is easier to just accept that the bible is not the perfect word of a perfect god than it is to go through all the mental gymnastics needed to justify these barbaric verses.
By: edhensley on March 25, 2017
at 6:14 pm
@ Donna. Thank you for your comment and providing the excerpt from Ezekiel. It at least provides a reason for the practice and it is a starting point for me to do more research! The only thing that perplexes me is the time span between Leviticus and Ezekiel being approximately 800 years apart AND Ezekiel coming later. With that being said, how can this verse support an earlier verse 800 years earlier?
By: Vicky on March 29, 2017
at 10:50 pm
@Vicky, Not sure if my earlier response to you got through but here goes again.Forgive me for the length, I’m trying to type out my thoughts but can’t seem to get it all succinct! My apologies if it’s typed twice. To answer your question I really don’t know and especially why it came so many years later is beyond me. I don’t have the answers. I just know this, for me the Ezekiel scripture at least shows me that God and His Son Jesus Christ does at least see them as bad laws because He said so. Interestingly, I Corinthians 1:25 is speaking regarding the gospel message, and I have to wonder perhaps it also includes those scriptures we are discussing that don’t make sense as well? I Corinthians 1:25 says “For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.” This is my position (and I in no way am telling you Vicky or anyone here how to think) For me, I would rather continue in my faith even if it means wondering all my life why He made those laws to a specific people in a specific time period and why He gave that Ezekiel scripture so many years later without any explanation behind it…because as i see it, one day I will get the chance to ask Him face to face those questions and I know i will finally get an answer from Him. Than to do what many unfortunately do and lose all their faith doubting that God exists. No, I’m just too tenacious in my faith, way too stubborn in my resolve. I WANT HEAVEN AND NOTHING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING NOT EVEN SOME O.T. SCRIPTURE I CAN’T UNDERSTAND IS EVER GONNA COME BETWEEN ME AND HEAVEN! (I not yelling at you or anyone just making a strong affirmation that’s all … the evil one will use anything to get us to lose our faith to lose our destiny of heaven – even if it means using scripture to get us to doubt). I’m thinking of Job and Jesus, both were tested on their faith. Job got all his answers in Heaven more than what is just written in the Bible. In closing all I can think is God agreeing those laws/ordinances that don’t make any sense or have anything to do with gender/girls/boys/birth/unclean/clean were bad and as Apostle Paul even says what we deem as God being foolish is in fact much wiser than any man’s wisdom and those of us who hold on, fight the good fight of faith, i’m sure one day we’ll get our answer. – Peace.
By: Donna on March 30, 2017
at 6:03 pm
“Apostle Paul even says what we deem as God being foolish is in fact much wiser than any man’s wisdom and those of us who hold on, fight the good fight of faith, i’m sure one day we’ll get our answer.”
“The Prophet Mohammad even says what we deem as Allah being foolish is in fact much wiser than any man’s wisdom and those of us who hold on, fight the good fight of faith, i’m sure one day we’ll get our answer.”
What is the difference?
By: edhensley on March 30, 2017
at 6:58 pm
Another suggestion to think about and debate; Statistically, In a population of maybe 100 million women, allowing sex again 40 days after a male birth as compared with the 60 days after a female birth, would, over time, increase the number of boys born — sadly to be lost in wars.
By: Victor on June 3, 2015
at 1:59 pm
Your statistical hypothesis still doesn’t answer why women were unclean twice as long for having a girl as opposed to a boy. The Bible doesn’t say that this was done to “increase the number of boys born-sadly to be lost in wars”. The Bible specifically says that women are dirty twice as long for having girls.
By: Vicky on November 10, 2015
at 12:44 am
wow that was a crazy jump in your conclusion. Women valued less worthy than men in Bible. it is much more likely that you, ed, personally believe women to be less valuable and less worthy than males.
With respect to the Bible it could be that a woman is considered unclean twice as long with a girl child because the mother is given twice as much time alone with the girl child to bond. The mother-daughter bond is very strong and important throughout life, thus special care is taken at birth to better ensure it builds correctly.
By: biblegirl on July 3, 2015
at 8:53 pm
You jump to 2 conclusions not supported by evidence. First of all, I do not consider women to be less worthy than males. Secondly, your justification for the sexism in this passage is not supported by the verses. Nowhere do the verses state that the reason to do this is because of concern about a mother-daughter bond.
By: edhensley on July 3, 2015
at 8:59 pm
Evidence; the article you wrote is the evidence. You pick and choose what you want to call evidence. And you do consider women less or you wouldn’t be writing that garbage in this article. It is you that is supporting sexism.
As for the mother-daughter bond being the underlying reason for the special time there is nothing in the Bible verse that excludes it either.
The answer to the verse is now left to the reader and what the reader wants to believe. The answer you want to believe in evidenced by your writing it in the article is one that holds women less than men.
By: biblegirl on July 12, 2015
at 9:03 pm
Nowhere do I say that women are worth less. It is the bible that says that. I do not support sexism, I have never said that, and you are lying if you continue to claim that I support sexism. You should read the About section of this blog before making more claims about me.
Then “reasons” of any kind could be made up for any verse in the bible. The “reason” god killed all the people of Sodom and Gomorrah is because they were space aliens. As you say, “there is nothing the Bible verse that excludes it either,”?
Such an answer supports moral and factual relativism. Is homosexuality wrong? “The answer to the verse is now left to the reader and what the reader wants to believe.” Is Jesus only human (as the earliest Christian sect, the Ebionites believed), only spirit (as some Gnostics believed), or both (as was determined to be the truth in 325 AD)? “The answer to the verse is now left to the reader and what the reader wants to believe.” You have determined that the bible is not relevant in determining what is true. The individual believer can believe whatever they want. I, of course, believe the bible is nothing more than Bronze Age fairy tales.
By: edhensley on July 13, 2015
at 12:12 am
They that have seen me have seen the father.He is the Father of creation the son in redemption and the Holy Ghost of regeneration.The Spirit of truth before the cross the word of God on the cross and the Spirit of Prophecy after the cross. I and my Father are one. Shama Israel Adonai Eloheynu Adonai Echad.Here ol Israel are Lord thy God is one.For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
By: Kevin Shaffer on November 6, 2015
at 3:54 pm
Kevin……instead of quoting Scriptures and/or using Biblical concepts that can be used to explain or justify any excerpt that places blame on the reader/believer for not having enough faith by questioning “God’s Word”, why don’t you try answering the initial question that the moderator posed…..Why were women unclean twice as long for having girls as opposed to boys? Some of us have “asked’ “sought” and “knocked” but didn’t get an answer. If you don’t have the answer, why don’t you “knock” it off with your nonsense? Some of us are tired of attempts that are made by other Christians to brainwash us by pointing out that we may “lack faith” because we can’t accept what was supposedly said, what was done and what is being done today by our religious leaders based on what was written in the Bible. I refuse to accept that God told “man” that women were dirty twice as long for having a girl as opposed to a boy. That sounds like something a sexist man would say…not a loving God.
By: Vicky on November 10, 2015
at 12:34 am
http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/510244/jewish/Ritual-purity-after-birth-of-males-and-females.htm
Maybe this will help you to understand what unclean actually means. You don’t seem to understand the concept. I think that it probably didn’t translate well.
Also, you fail to understand the Jewish concept of women, who are creators, a positve, and the balance against negative.
By: K on January 7, 2016
at 12:47 am
A friend of mine who grew up as an Orthodox Jew mentioned daily prayers of Jewish men that included thanking god for not making them a woman (or Gentile or slave). She recalls being segregated during Temple services. She felt that the entire Jewish religion was extremely sexist, and she is a happy atheist today. Your apologies for Jewish sexism are no different than Muslim apologies for Islamic sexism.
By: edhensley on January 7, 2016
at 12:07 pm
WOW! Do you really think the Bible is as simple as just reading a novel? There is no way I can explain these passages via this type of communication. There is just too much foundational work required for this to make any sense in our culture. Most of you don’t even understand what the terms clean and unclean mean. And 80 days rather than 40 days was a rest or break for the woman, not punitive. Nevertheless, the Bible is a compilation of inspired writings. The Biblical writers instruct us to rightly divide the Word of truth and to study to show yourself approved. The depth of meaning doesn’t come with superficial reading. Also, the Bible wasn’t written in English and the English translations contain words that have changed in meaning. “Baby girls twice as dirty as baby boys” only reveals the depth of ignorance and lack of scholarship on the part of the author. Very sad.
By: John on February 22, 2016
at 6:59 pm
“80 days rather than 40 days was a rest or break for the woman, not punitive”
This assertion is nor found anywhere in the scriptures. You would not permit a Muslim to make a similar assertion when defending the Koran.
The entire book of Leviticus gives a pretty good indication of what is considered clean and unclean regarding entering the temple, but Leviticus 11-22 in particular focus on skin diseases, bodily discharges, rules for priests, etc,.
Here is the verse regarding women being on their period.
Lev 15:19 “‘When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.”
All of Lev 11-22 show that certain “blemishes” (sometimes normal body functions) are considered something that makes an individual less holy. The rules for priests are partly shown below.
Lev 21:16 The Lord said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.’”
By: edhensley on February 24, 2016
at 10:41 am
Why is a woman “unclean” at all? Hogwash! The additional nonsense about the “impurity” of the perfectly natural process of menstruation defies intellectual belief. Sheesh.
By: Renee Cush on May 11, 2016
at 8:28 am
Please do some research into the Hebrew language and also the culture at the time this was written. If you understand the context, this is no way demeaning to women in any way shape or form. Remember that the Bible wasn’t written in English. Translations are not inspired and do not always get it right. I would provide the explanation, but it would require too much foundation and it would be too long and you will appreciate it more if you do the research yourself. I can only guarantee you that your interpretation and conclusions are invalid.
By: John on May 25, 2016
at 6:17 pm
There is no context that justify these rules.
By: edhensley on May 25, 2016
at 6:31 pm
Okay, That’s an intellectually lazy reply. Obviously, you have made up your mind in order to accommodate your bias regarding the Scriptures rather than finding the truth. That’s your prerogative, but that attitude disqualifies you as a legitimate critic of the Bible or any other source of truth.
By: John on May 25, 2016
at 9:18 pm
I have replied on that post multiple times since 2010. Feel free to read all my earlier replies. It is basically the same argument and reply every time. The rules in the scripture are stupid even if they were the same for baby boys and girls. It is time for people to leave the Bronze Age and enter the 21st century.
By: edhensley on May 30, 2016
at 9:40 pm
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By: Why So Many Evangelicals Find Donald Trump Simply Irresistible | ValerieTarico.com on June 21, 2016
at 5:35 pm
[…] Kelly sit on the furniture! And by the way, a woman who gives birth to a girl baby is nasty for twice as long as one who gives birth to a boy. But don’t get too insulted. Women can be saved […]
By: A Series of Articles on Donald Trump… Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid… | Radical Response… on July 4, 2016
at 4:56 pm
This is a difficult part of the Bible… I find it difficult to understand. Perhaps it is a natural consequence of what happened in Genesis: the woman sinned first. The LORD is a God of LOVE, but He also reminds us of sin, and shows us its consequences. This reminder of sin acts as a way for us to remember our need for purification. At the same time, we see in the Bible that God’s heart is to restore men and women: “Your sons and your daughters will prophecy” – both have a role in the kingdom – Acts 2:17 & Joel 2:28, and “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” – Galatians 3:28
If we come back to the passage in Leviticus… It is important to note that later on in the passage, you see that the same sacrifice is necessary for purification after both the birth of a girl and a boy. No differences there.
It could also be argued that as the boy is also circumcised and the girl isn’t, the double amount of days replaces the circumcision rite for the boy.
Just speculation. That probably won’t answer all the other questions you and I have. Leviticus is a difficult book to understand…
God loves you and wants you back. He is waiting for you with open arms, as in the parable of the prodigal son. He wants to quench your thirst for answers and envelop you with His love.
By: inainspired on September 6, 2016
at 10:07 am
It is not difficult to understand if you view this as Bronze Age mythology.
By: edhensley on September 6, 2016
at 1:27 pm
Bob Deffinbaugh, Pastor and teacher, describes:
https://bible.org/seriespage/9-offending-god-clean-and-unclean-part-ii-leviticus-12-15
By: Amanda on April 29, 2017
at 3:02 am
I cannot believe anyone would post this as an apology. So much wrong. I will quote the following to show I am not talking out of context. Heck, read the whole thing if you like. But he basically says women were “punished two-fold” when they had a girl because this reminded them that women were cursed. I am sorry, but women are NOT cursed because some woman ate a piece of fruit after talking with a talking snake 6000 years ago. This is Bronze Age mythology.
Also, he quotes Exodus 19 and 20, but leaves out Exodus 21, which has rules for slavery, permits a father to sell his daughter as a slave, and permits a slave owner to beat his slave until he/she is unconscious.
By: edhensley on May 4, 2017
at 7:48 pm
Women were viewed as being “cursed” in the Bible because it allowed men to control them better, period. Men argue this by stating that women were the first to sin so they are cursed with ailments like pain in childbearing and monthly periods. However, MAN (specifically Adam) sinned first because he didn’t follow God’s instructions to protect his wife and watch the garden. He watched the serpent enter the garden AND tempt his wife and DID NOTHING yet women are cursed because we were the first to sin by being deceived?! Really? Then the Book of Timothy condones this sexist LIE by adding: 1 Timothy 2:14-15 “And Adam was not deceived, but the women being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless, she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love and holiness, with self control”. Now that women are ALLOWED to read the Bible for ourselves, we can lift ourselves up from our oppression and see that we were not deceived first but Adam was because he allowed Satan to come into the garden and tempt his wife. Now our wonderful friend Paul (who is supposed to have written this sexist lie and nonsense) states that the only way women will be saved is through childrearing? Wow! So if we take his words at face value, Mother Teresa is not saved. Neither is Joan of Arc. I have nothing to lose by writing this because according to this text, I can’t be saved either since I never had children (especially because of 30+ consecutive days of bleeding at a time and my reproductive system inflicted with fibroids. Oh yes….this is MY CURSE…for being a woman! Goodness gracious. I forgot. But wait a minute….who was the first to really sin? Oh yeah….It was ADAM! But wait a minute again….that doesn’t make sense. One verse contradicts the other.
Now some pastor out of Texas tries to justify this sexist nonsense in a modern world? Bottom line, one can’t take the Bible literally. If one does, defend that aforementioned contradiction to me, Amanda. Oh. But you won’t. You probably forgot all about this blog because you didn’t take the time to research the matter and just accepted this Pastor’s supposed conclusion. You probably felt like you did your religious duty by teaching us what is right by posting a blog from the Texas pastor. John before you, another righteous man, claimed he didn’t have the time. Nice! This is why I stopped going to church and I find the answers myself!.
Men back then wanted to appear righteous so THEY decided to make up all of these rules and God allowed it because He gave man free will. Women believed these lies because most were not educated or weren’t allowed to read the Bible. At the same time, men continued to have their sexual urges but couldn’t go near their “unclean” wives so they devised ways to overcome that by divorcing them because their wives were “cursed” with excessive bleeding.. Some laws also allowed men to have more than one wife wife/wives supposedly so the world could be populated. Could it have been because they couldn’t uphold their own stupid law by having to wait to have sex because their first wife was unclean after having a child (oh darn it, now they have to wait twice as long for having a girl….thank goodness for wife number two….they don’t have to do a Hans Solo (another sin that is only a days punishment for the man as opposed to 40- 80 days for the woman) because they have a second vagina that is clean!) Better yet, some just went out there and had sex with all of the harlots and of course, only women could be harlots (not men). Remember the story of Jesus writing in the sand in the NT, what was He writing? Was it the name of the whore man who had sex with the whore woman? Things that make you go HUM!
By: Vicky on May 8, 2017
at 3:24 am
C’mon guys and admit it, the quote from the bible is sexist and repugnant. Christianity is outdated rubbish the same as the Koran. The only true way is to rejoiced in The Planet for without that we are all noting.
By: Mal Gengo on January 1, 2018
at 10:51 pm
Satan really has you blinded. I will pray for you
By: Rodney on April 1, 2022
at 4:42 am
[…] Kelly sit on the furniture! And by the way, a woman who gives birth to a girl baby is nasty for twice as long as one who gives birth to a boy. But don’t get too insulted. Women can be saved through […]
By: Donald Trump: Son of Yahweh … | Homeless on the High Desert on August 22, 2019
at 1:24 pm
Children born through Rape in Scripture
By: Richard K. Lively on September 18, 2021
at 9:28 pm
The reason a woman was unclean longer is because she is giving birth to a female who will go through the same as her when baring children. I think that you should be able to understand that, even with your closed mind. God lives all beings and His laws aren’t made to restrict us but to help. People like you with your ignorance of God need to pray for guidance from being mislead by Satan.
By: Rodney on April 1, 2022
at 4:40 am